"No more baby parts"

[howard]

No one cares to comment on this recent event? I can do this, or Turkey/Russia in Syria, or Chicago cop murderer coverup, or ISIS in Libya, or any number of current shit falling apart.

Some long time swampers may remember I used to work in a womens' care clinic, I've done lots of abortions. Wore a vest to work. Just disclosing bias. Plus, I'm acquainted with a family that is related to the cop who was murdered in this episode at Colorado Springs P.P.

[sancarlos]

Wasn't that video doctored? The one the nuts say "proved" planned parenthood was trafficking in fetuses?

[Gunpowder]

Yes, just like the ACORN videos that spawned 10,000x the outrage that a video about gerrymandering would.

[howard]

If the folks who did that video, and the terrorist from Friday were all brown and/or muslims, they'd all be in jail today. Not saying the video folks should or should not be facing charges, only harping on yet another 'it's ok to do if you're white and christian' thing.

[The Sybian]

Wasn't that video doctored? The one the nuts say "proved" planned parenthood was trafficking in fetuses?

Yes, even the dude who made the video admits it was deceptive. The supposedly aborted fetuses were stillborn, and the supposed Planned Parenthood employees harvesting the fetuses weren't PP employees. Carly Fiorina raged about this during one of the debates, and continues to push the discredited narrative. It is astounding how these candidates can continue to tell lies long after the lies are proven false, and get away with it. Journalists need to sack the fuck up and call them out on this bullshit. We are starting to see this, a bit, with Trump being called out about personally witnessing "thousands upon thousands" of Muslims in Jersey City celebrating on 9/11. There has to be a tipping point where the media breaks and actually asks real questions or challenges bullshit.

[Gunpowder]

My gf cheers them on (Trump, Fiorina, et. al.) while they do it. There is a hatred fueling people these days.

Just like Kerouac cheering on Sen. McCarthy, the hatred overrides all logic.

[Giff]

Wasn't that video doctored? The one the nuts say "proved" planned parenthood was trafficking in fetuses?

Yes, even the dude who made the video admits it was deceptive. The supposedly aborted fetuses were stillborn, and the supposed Planned Parenthood employees harvesting the fetuses weren't PP employees. Carly Fiorina raged about this during one of the debates, and continues to push the discredited narrative. It is astounding how these candidates can continue to tell lies long after the lies are proven false, and get away with it. Journalists need to sack the fuck up and call them out on this bullshit. We are starting to see this, a bit, with Trump being called out about personally witnessing "thousands upon thousands" of Muslims in Jersey City celebrating on 9/11. There has to be a tipping point where the media breaks and actually asks real questions or challenges bullshit.

It's because they don't believe it's true. I see it everyday with my friends who are supposedly smart, they just dismiss these facts as something made up by the liberal media. For example, the story about more Mexicans leaving for Mexico than are entering the US from Mexico was outright dismissed with well-researched posts like "there's no way that's true" or "typical liberal media". It's why Trump is succeeding so much.

[Steve of phpBB]

The videos were deceptively edited, but it's not that simple. As I understand it, Planned Parenthood does "sell" fetal tissue to research facilities, but the price only covers (or is supposed to cover) costs necessary to harvest the tissue.

Vox has a really good explainer on this: http://www.vox.com/2015/8/13/9140849/pl ... s-unedited" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SportsDoc]

Pro-Lifer here. Minority Swamper. Respect what Howard did for the women he helped.

To my way of thinking: The end never justifies the means. How can one be truly a pro-life person and then kill another human? Inconceivable to me. I also do not equate these lunatics as Christians, Christ being a peaceful man. At least not as Christians to the standard I place on myself.

I'm a believer that if you want change, you work through our system of laws. As of now, abortion is legal. It's that simple. I do believe that the goalposts are constantly changing as to when a fetus is "viable" as a human outside the womb, and to me this is where we should draw the line on abortion. Where it was at the time of Roe v. Wade was totally different than today. But, that's science and the other is law. They aren't always at the same place or pace. Sometimes science is ahead of the law, sometimes it's the other way around.

Bottom line is those who commit violent acts against lawful citizens need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent, and I think in many instances have "earned" the death penalty.

[BSF21]

Pro-Lifer here. Minority Swamper. Respect what Howard did for the women he helped.

To my way of thinking: The end never justifies the means. How can one be truly a pro-life person and then kill another human? Inconceivable to me. I also do not equate these lunatics as Christians, Christ being a peaceful man. At least not as Christians to the standard I place on myself.

I'm a believer that if you want change, you work through our system of laws. As of now, abortion is legal. It's that simple. I do believe that the goalposts are constantly changing as to when a fetus is "viable" as a human outside the womb, and to me this is where we should draw the line on abortion. Where it was at the time of Roe v. Wade was totally different than today. But, that's science and the other is law. They aren't always at the same place or pace. Sometimes science is ahead of the law, sometimes it's the other way around.

Bottom line is those who commit violent acts against lawful citizens need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent, and I think in many instances have "earned" the death penalty.

I'm constantly conflicted about my stance on the death penalty, but I do question those who choose to draw lines with the unborn and then choose not to with people who commit heinous acts. Not saying you are in the wrong here SDoc, obviously an unborn child and a murderer are not apples to apples, but what makes the line for you? The peaceful Christ-like attitude from what I know would dictate that you turn the other cheek, eye for and eye blinds the world, etc.

There are no easy answers here, but I'm always interested in the other side's take.

[Gunpowder]

The death penalty should have been the part where the cops just shot this dude instead of arresting him and saved us all the time and expense.

[Gunpowder]

Also, locking somebody up for life isn't exactly "turning the other cheek".

[howard]

Pro-Lifer here. Minority Swamper. Respect what Howard did for the women he helped.

Mutual respect. I respect your stance, and your willingness to discuss it here in the figurative lions' den (not Brian's kind of lions either.)

[SportsDoc]

Pro-Lifer here. Minority Swamper. Respect what Howard did for the women he helped.

To my way of thinking: The end never justifies the means. How can one be truly a pro-life person and then kill another human? Inconceivable to me. I also do not equate these lunatics as Christians, Christ being a peaceful man. At least not as Christians to the standard I place on myself.

I'm a believer that if you want change, you work through our system of laws. As of now, abortion is legal. It's that simple. I do believe that the goalposts are constantly changing as to when a fetus is "viable" as a human outside the womb, and to me this is where we should draw the line on abortion. Where it was at the time of Roe v. Wade was totally different than today. But, that's science and the other is law. They aren't always at the same place or pace. Sometimes science is ahead of the law, sometimes it's the other way around.

Bottom line is those who commit violent acts against lawful citizens need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent, and I think in many instances have "earned" the death penalty.

I'm constantly conflicted about my stance on the death penalty, but I do question those who choose to draw lines with the unborn and then choose not to with people who commit heinous acts. Not saying you are in the wrong here SDoc, obviously an unborn child and a murderer are not apples to apples, but what makes the line for you? The peaceful Christ-like attitude from what I know would dictate that you turn the other cheek, eye for and eye blinds the world, etc.

There are no easy answers here, but I'm always interested in the other side's take.

Strictly my perspective, and I know it seems to be a paradox, but: the unborn fetus did nothing to deserve death, while the convicted murderer did. I am not a death penalty proponent either, just saying I'm OK in certain instances with a lawful death sentence. I'm also just fine with life without parole.

To me, Pro-life means to protect innocent life. You, me, children and yes, a fetus, again, to me. Those who take others lives, in certain instances, have "earned" the death penalty, and I'm OK with that. Those people are no longer innocent.

The reality is there are horrible people in this world, and sometimes they "earn" the death penalty. Timothy McVeigh and Adolf Hitler come to mind as examples. I'm fine with their demise.

[Gunpowder]

Pro-Lifer here. Minority Swamper. Respect what Howard did for the women he helped.

Mutual respect. I respect your stance, and your willingness to discuss it here in the figurative lions' den (not Brian's kind of lions either.)

That Lions den would be a remarkably easy place to face hostile opposition.

[Gunpowder]

Not as bad as the time Ted Haggard earned the Meth Penalty.

[BSF21]

Pro-Lifer here. Minority Swamper. Respect what Howard did for the women he helped.

Mutual respect. I respect your stance, and your willingness to discuss it here in the figurative lions' den (not Brian's kind of lions either.)

That Lions den would be a remarkably easy place to face hostile opposition.

+1

[The Sybian]

Pro-Lifer here. Minority Swamper. Respect what Howard did for the women he helped.

To my way of thinking: The end never justifies the means. How can one be truly a pro-life person and then kill another human? Inconceivable to me. I also do not equate these lunatics as Christians, Christ being a peaceful man. At least not as Christians to the standard I place on myself.

I'm a believer that if you want change, you work through our system of laws. As of now, abortion is legal. It's that simple. I do believe that the goalposts are constantly changing as to when a fetus is "viable" as a human outside the womb, and to me this is where we should draw the line on abortion. Where it was at the time of Roe v. Wade was totally different than today. But, that's science and the other is law. They aren't always at the same place or pace. Sometimes science is ahead of the law, sometimes it's the other way around.

Bottom line is those who commit violent acts against lawful citizens need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent, and I think in many instances have "earned" the death penalty.

I completely agree, there is nothing "Christ-like" about the lunatic Christians. It took me a long time to come to an opinion on abortion, but ultimately I see it as a medical decision, and I respect a woman's right to choose. Nobody likes the idea of abortions, which is why the term "pro-abortion" bothers me. I completely understand the pro-life argument, and it's 100% rational to view abortion as killing an innocent life. My view is that a pre-viable fetus is a mass of cells with the potential for life. The birth control pill, and all forms of birth control, really, stop the potential for life. There isn't much difference between an abortion and birth control preventing a fertilized egg (zygote?) from attaching to the uterine wall.

As for the law, it has been many years since I've read Roe v. Wade and the cases that followed, but there is almost nothing left of the Roe v. Wade case. Particularly Planned Parenthood v. Casey, which allows for State intrusions pre-viability, such as mandatory informed consent laws, parental consent for minors as long as they don't cause an "undue burden." The Roe Court specifically used the term viability to account for scientific improvements allowing for the viability point to move forward with medical advancements.

What I do have a problem with, is some of the extreme laws proposed to make it more difficult to get an abortion, or add embarrassing, expensive, or time consuming hurdles that are completely unrelated to medical or any reasons other than to create a burden. For example, forced internal vaginal probes. I also have a problem with legislators spewing lies, like the body shuts down the reproduction process during a "legitimate rape," so all rape victims who become pregnant are lying about being raped. And I get angry at the protesters heckling women going into PP. I dated a girl who didn't have health insurance, so she went to PP for regular gyno visits and to get the pill. Most women aren't too comfortable going into an exam, so having a bunch of lunatics screaming in your face, telling you you are going to hell, and shoving pictures of bloody fetuses and fetus models in your face isn't helpful. Then think about all the women going in for a visit related to serious medical condition like cervical cancer or something else.

What really infuriated me was a week or so after my wife had a miscarriage, we were walking near an abortion clinic in midtown Manhattan. Some lunatics had huge, full color posters of bloody fetus and were handing out rubber fetus dolls to kids. On top of the emotions of the failed pregnancy and the physical ordeal of the pregnancy terminating, her hormones were a trainwreck magnifying the pain exponentially. Thankfully, I distracted her and went a different route so she didn't notice, but that would have been an enormous emotional blow for her at that time. Regardless of their personal beliefs, which I respect, many of these protesters are despicable scum for what they do, especially since the majority of women going into PP aren't there for an abortion.

[Steve of phpBB]

I completely agree, there is nothing "Christ-like" about the lunatic Christians.

There is nothing Christ-like about any of the people whose main focus is calling themselves Christian.

It took me a long time to come to an opinion on abortion, but ultimately I see it as a medical decision, and I respect a woman's right to choose. Nobody likes the idea of abortions, which is why the term "pro-abortion" bothers me. I completely understand the pro-life argument, and it's 100% rational to view abortion as killing an innocent life. My view is that a pre-viable fetus is a mass of cells with the potential for life. The birth control pill, and all forms of birth control, really, stop the potential for life. There isn't much difference between an abortion and birth control preventing a fertilized egg (zygote?) from attaching to the uterine wall.

I don't know that I see it as a medical decision purely. I don't think a fetus is the same as a "baby," but it's also not a nothing. To me, there is some moral "wrong" in terminating a pregnancy that if left alone would otherwise lead to a birth.

But to me, the right of a person to decide what goes on in his or her body, and the right of a person to decide not to stay pregnant, supercedes that moral concern.

[DaveInSeattle]

No one cares to comment on this recent event? I can do this, or Turkey/Russia in Syria, or Chicago cop murderer coverup, or ISIS in Libya, or any number of current shit falling apart.

Some long time swampers may remember I used to work in a womens' care clinic, I've done lots of abortions. Wore a vest to work. Just disclosing bias. Plus, I'm acquainted with a family that is related to the cop who was murdered in this episode at Colorado Springs P.P.

Where to even start with this...

1-I always thought killing a cop meant you weren't being taken alive. This guy kills a cop, and 2 others, and is brought in just fine. After a year of unarmed black kids getting gunned down, a white cop killer is taken alive? Really?????

2-A Planned Parenthood clinic, in a suburban strip mall, has a freakin' safe room?????

3-Damn right that guy is a domestic terrorist.

4-Also, damned right all the bullshit being pumped out by Carly Fiorini and the like has an effect. See the "safe rooms" comment above.

5-Yes, Planned Parenthood does abortions. Which are LEGAL! It also does a ton of other good things, like provide birth control, and basic women's health care.

6-All of the GOP candidates trying to say that Planned Parenthood "brought this on themselves" can fall down a well. Especially you, Mike Huckabee.

[SportsDoc]

All of the GOP candidates trying to say that Planned Parenthood "brought this on themselves" can fall down a well. Especially you, Mike Huckabee.

Totally agree. And while I suspect some in PP may have profited from selling aborted fetuses, I am, none the less, a big proponent of stem cell research. It saves lives, and will continue to do so in the future. I am still against abortion personally, but as stated before, it is legal, therefore protected in our country. You don't change one law by breaking others. You work within the system, otherwise you have anarchy.

As to Huckabee (a holier than though type if ever there was one), I have a hard time with him. Remember as Arkansas Governor he pardoned a killer because "he found God" in prison. That man then moved to Seattle, as I remember, and went on a rampage killing several people. Nice work Mike!

It's great to forgive, it's unwise to forget. He could just as easily found God in prison and just stayed there. I do not consider Huckabee the brightest bulb on the tree, nor a representative of my Christian philosophy. I'll speak for myself, thanks anyway Governor.

[BSF21]

How a raging, intollerant, pandering, bigoted, hypocrite like Mike Huckabee is even tolerated in our society is beyond me.

"have a hard time with him" just doesn't do it. You don't have a hard time with people like him. Hiding behind your "religious convictions" is truly the bottom of the barrel. If you're going to be a racist, or a bigot, or step on anyone smaller than you and then hide behind the teachings of Jesus...if there is a just and righteous force in the universe than I cannot perceive, it better have a special place to pound his sad ass into a pile of dust.

People focus on Trump and give this fuckwit a pass. It's OK to be influenced by your experiences and beliefs, but Huckabee crosses a line that makes me associated to him by breathing the same air that he has the good fortune of still breathing feel so incredibly sad. If I were a Christian, and it's not a secret that I'm not, I would be so ashamed at the poor light he casts my faith in. I couldn't stand for it. And in lies my problem with the whole thing. The herd mentality. No one is going to stand up and take issue and call him out on his bullshit for fear of being seen as less of a "Christian" than someone like him is.

I don't blanket people very often, but Mike Huckabee can go fuck himself 6 ways from Sunday.

[howard]

Planned Parenthood suspect: 'I am a warrior for the babies' This guy is a soundbite machine.

[DaveInSeattle]

Planned Parenthood suspect: 'I am a warrior for the babies' This guy is a soundbite machine.

Carla Fiorina must be so proud.

[SportsDoc]

Planned Parenthood suspect: 'I am a warrior for the babies' This guy is a soundbite machine.

Carla Fiorina must be so proud.

I'm sure she is not proud.

As neither are any Pro-lifers over this terrible atrocity, myself included.

But, to say that the rhetoric from the Pro-lifers created this is disingenuous and stifles the discussion, which is what some on the Pro-choice side want. Make pro-lifers feel guilty and maybe they'll quit pushing so hard for change. Both sides have equal right to their opinions on this very emotional subject. That's how this country works. Not with "safe spaces", or the comparison that harsh rhetoric causes these events (both sides are guilty of this). The world is a harsh place sometimes. America is still the gold standard whereby people of all cultures and beliefs can come together and, without retribution, say how they feel and why they feel that way. It needs to stay that way. As long as those opinions don't include the call to violence or criminal activity to solve a problem that some may see, it is the open and sometimes very emotional discussion of opposing views that makes this country great.

Remember, if you stifle your opponents by claiming their rhetoric is responsible for atrocities, some day it will someone else saying it about what you truly believe in. And pretty soon we no longer have free speech. The reality of America, and what makes it great, is that sometimes you will hear strong dissent for something you very strongly favor, or vice versa.

I suspect you know Carla Fiorina is not proud of the lunatics attack on PP, and, she is not responsible for it either, the criminal is.

[Giff]

Yeah, don't stifle Fiorina's speech by criticizing it, stifle the speech of those criticizing pro-lifers like Fiorina!

[tennbengal]

I must have missed the pro-choice crazies shooting up something pro-life. Lets not play false equivalence games. The demonization of PP by anti-choice voices has made them a target for exactly what happened in Colorado for a LONG time. Good christ.

[mister d]

Fiorina drew a connection from Planned Parenthood to Iran. You aren't allowed to do that shit in a leadership role then get full absolution to being part of the underlying cause.

[SportsDoc]

I really don't see a lot of talk about anything other than defunding of federal $$$ for PP over some of their practices, which I have expressed an opinion on earlier in this topic.

Let’s stop trying to use these incidents as weapons against our political enemies. It’s getting to the point where reports of crimes aren’t so much a prompt for the public to demand truth but rather an opportunity to sling mud at the opposition. That’s a depressing development in our society.

You guys can have the last word. Peace.

[mister d]

So Trump rallying his base with anti-Muslim rhetoric holds no blame when a member of his base commits an anti-Muslim act?

[tennbengal]

So Trump rallying his base with anti-Muslim rhetoric holds no blame when a member of his base commits an anti-Muslim act?

Pure coincidence.

[DaveInSeattle]

I suspect you know Carla Fiorina is not proud of the lunatics attack on PP, and, she is not responsible for it either, the criminal is.

She may not be directly responsible, but her (and thousands of others) irresponsible rhetoric certainly contributed to this, and many of the other crimes directed at Planned Parenthood.

The Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs, which provides needed, necessary, and totally LEGAL services, had to have a safe room, for god's sake. That doesn't happen in a vacuum.

[Giff]

I really don't see a lot of talk about anything other than defunding of federal $$$ for PP over some of their practices, which I have expressed an opinion on earlier in this topic.

Let’s stop trying to use these incidents as weapons against our political enemies. It’s getting to the point where reports of crimes aren’t so much a prompt for the public to demand truth but rather an opportunity to sling mud at the opposition. That’s a depressing development in our society.

You guys can have the last word. Peace.

This recent issue all started with a right-wing group doctoring videos to make it look like PP illegally sold fetal tissue. Your consternation should be at something like that rather than those of us who call out politicians who believe this video was legit and used it to promote an anti-PP/abortion agenda.

Then again, pro-lifers have been killing abortion doctors for years.

[The Sybian]

I'm sure she is not proud.

As neither are any Pro-lifers over this terrible atrocity, myself included.

But, to say that the rhetoric from the Pro-lifers created this is disingenuous and stifles the discussion, which is what some on the Pro-choice side want. Make pro-lifers feel guilty and maybe they'll quit pushing so hard for change. Both sides have equal right to their opinions on this very emotional subject. That's how this country works. Not with "safe spaces", or the comparison that harsh rhetoric causes these events (both sides are guilty of this). The world is a harsh place sometimes. America is still the gold standard whereby people of all cultures and beliefs can come together and, without retribution, say how they feel and why they feel that way. It needs to stay that way. As long as those opinions don't include the call to violence or criminal activity to solve a problem that some may see, it is the open and sometimes very emotional discussion of opposing views that makes this country great.

Remember, if you stifle your opponents by claiming their rhetoric is responsible for atrocities, some day it will someone else saying it about what you truly believe in. And pretty soon we no longer have free speech. The reality of America, and what makes it great, is that sometimes you will hear strong dissent for something you very strongly favor, or vice versa.

I suspect you know Carla Fiorina is not proud of the lunatics attack on PP, and, she is not responsible for it either, the criminal is.

I am all for dissenting opinions and challenging whether states should have the decision on whether abortions are legal. My issue is politicians continuing to push false narratives and use conclusively debunked information in order to score points and evoke strong emotional responses. I don't blame anyone other than the shooter in the PP shooting, but the constant demonization of PP by spreading lies sure isn't helping. As I detailed above, I take issue with many of the tactics used by protesters outside of PP clinics. Like the Westboro Baptist Church, Nazi marchers and KKK, they can protest on public property, and we have to let them. I respect their right to protest, but many of them cross the line into deplorable.

[Pruitt]

I am all for dissenting opinions and challenging whether states should have the decision on whether abortions are legal. My issue is politicians continuing to push false narratives and use conclusively debunked information in order to score points and evoke strong emotional responses. I don't blame anyone other than the shooter in the PP shooting, but the constant demonization of PP by spreading lies sure isn't helping. As I detailed above, I take issue with many of the tactics used by protesters outside of PP clinics. Like the Westboro Baptist Church, Nazi marchers and KKK, they can protest on public property, and we have to let them. I respect their right to protest, but many of them cross the line into deplorable.

The toxicity of the rhetoric is what is appalling. It is what breeds hatred, and in tone, the sewage spewing forth recently by Trump, Fiorina, Cruz and others is little different than the tone of what we hear from radical groups around the world.

America is supposed to be a land of compromise, where diverse opinions are respected. But what we are hearing sounds like thinly-veiled calls to action against the enemy.

I'm sure that Carly Fiorina does not rejoice at the fact that people in and around a Planned Parenthood office had their lives ended or ruined. But the tone and content of her words are nasty and inciteful. And in a land where dangerous weapons are readily available, that makes her and others morally - if not legally - culpable.

[Steve of phpBB]

I really don't see a lot of talk about anything other than defunding of federal $$$ for PP over some of their practices, which I have expressed an opinion on earlier in this topic.

I think the problem isn't that some people are talking about defunding PP. It's that they are talking about defunding PP "because they are killing babies so they can sell the parts." The *only* possible reason to use inflammatory language like that is to demonize PP and abortion-rights supporters. So I think people who use that kind of inflammatory language need to accept the responsibility when people act consistently with it.