Detroit Broke City

teeteebee · Post by **teeteebee** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:47 pm

It's so cold in the D.

Can a brother spare a dime?

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424 ... 4173709204" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:56 pm

Not really a shot at Detroit but . . . you know those Swamp obituary threads where someone inevitably responds "Really, I thought they died years ago"?

testy boxcar · Post by **testy boxcar** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:05 pm

their robocop budget was out of control for years.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:16 pm

Built Ford WEAK. AMMIRIGHT?

Post by **brian** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:52 pm

Ford hasn't been located in Detroit for more than 100 years.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:40 pm

My bad.

"A ten minute drive from Built Ford WEAK."

Better?

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:13 pm

brian wrote:Ford hasn't been located in Detroit for more than 100 years.

Well there's your problem.

howard · Post by **howard** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:41 pm

Obama: I "refused to let Detroit go bankrupt"

Well, not until after I get re-elected.

Post by **brian** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:18 pm

He was referring to Chrysler & GM and regardless of what you think of Obama the federal government made good on that promise.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:58 pm

So with typical bankruptcy someone has to start selling off their stuff to meet monetary demands of them right?

So that would mean the city has to sell off landmarks now?

I hope San Francisco buys the Monument to Joe Louis and it's erected (heh) in the Castro district.

kranepool · Post by **kranepool** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:15 am

From today's WSJ:

Q: What is Chapter 9?
A: Chapter 9 is a bankruptcy-protection filing specifically for municipalities so they can develop and negotiate a plan to adjust their debts, according to the U.S. Courts website. A municipality can't file for Chapter 9 relief unless the state permits the filing. Detroit's emergency manager, Kevyn Orr, recommended bankruptcy, and Michigan Gov. Richard Snyder authorized the filing.

Q: How will the filing affect Detroit residents?
A: The lights will stay on. But some services could be reduced, and the city could choose to raise taxes.

Q: What will happen to union contracts or pensions?
A: There could be big changes with union contracts, but it depends on how the bankruptcy judge responds to lawyer requests. Pensions for some retirees may not be altered, but those for current workers could be reduced.

Q: Will anything be sold?
A: Under the federal bankruptcy code, neither a judge nor creditors can force the city to liquidate its assets. This is a decision the city or the emergency manager would make. It is possible that Detroit-owned assets will be put up for sale, but it isn't known when that would happen and which assets would be on the block. They could include anything from the Detroit Zoo to a van Gogh painting to the historic Fort Wayne, all assets the city owns, according to public filings and media reports.

Q: Can creditors sue to get money owed?
A: Chapter 9 includes a provision called the "automatic stay" that operates to stop all collection actions against the city and its property upon the filing of a petition. This protects the city from lawsuits by creditors hoping to get paid.

Q: How long will it take?
A: Mr. Orr said during a news conference Thursday that while he has "concerns about the timeline," he plans to be finished "in late summer or fall of next year." Other municipal-bankruptcy experts have said they don't think that is possible. Recent municipal bankruptcies, such as Jefferson County, Ala., or Stockton, Calif., have taken more than a year to emerge from court oversight or are still in the process.

Q: How much will it cost?
A: Depending on how long the process takes, the process could cost the city hundreds of millions of dollars in legal and financial fees.

Q: What are bondholders getting paid?
A: This is still in the works. A deal is wrapping up to pay UBS AG and Bank of America Merrill Lynch 75 cents on the dollar on nearly $340 million in secured debt, according to people familiar with the matter. Unsecured creditors, such as some retirees and general obligation bonds, will likely get just pennies on the dollar.

teeteebee · Post by **teeteebee** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:44 am

Chapter 9? Obviously a hat tip to Gordie Howe.

I am glad to see the banks will get the bulk of their money back though. Especially BoA - their profit was only up 70%, to over $3b in the quarter, per their most recent filing. Would hate to see those guys take it on the chin so that all the old timers can buy the top shelf cat food.

(Note: read in the deepest, bold orange voice you have)

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:35 am

brian wrote:He was referring to Chrysler & GM and regardless of what you think of Obama the federal government made good on that promise.

facts are always a good thing...

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:37 am

tennbengal wrote:
brian wrote:He was referring to Chrysler & GM and regardless of what you think of Obama the federal government made good on that promise.
facts are always a good thing...

Ok then:

Fact Check: Letting Detroit go bankrupt WaPo link.

And then this was said also:

And there's this headline: Obama team monitors Detroit; no bailout expected

So then...he should have been more specific? Kinda like how I had to be more specific that Dearborn isn't Detroit? Unless I'm missing something here, this comes off pretty badly.

Post by **brian** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:42 am

http://detroit.jalopnik.com/we-love-det ... -832204589" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Detroit is already the butt of jokes and the target of pity, so the nonstop flow of jokes and tsk-tsking was just as inevitable as Friday's filing. I was dreading the former long after having accepted the latter.

Please tell me another Les Gold joke. Please post your OCP logos. Can you remind me again what Romney said in that NYT opinion that one time, I forgot just that quick. And my goodness, please spout another "It's So Cold in the D" lyric. But whatever you do, don't feel sorry for Detroit.

A headline like "Detroit is bankrupt" underneath a photo, another fucking photo, of a run-down house in the shadow of the city skyline tells half the story. The devil in the details is this: Detroit's biggest issue is dealing with pensions for retirees. It's a $2 billion open wound and no one knows how the city will deal with it. (You know who else has that problem? Chicago.)

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:55 am

Fact: Obama said those words.

You want to argue that those words meant something else, due to the context, due to the reference, fine. I choose to accept the simple, common meaning of those words. In the context of, in the reference to, getting re-elected. Only one of thousands of well-crafted, well-orchestrated lies.

Lies that worked. Lies that continue to work their magic. Believed by millions.

After he said GM and Chrysler, he went further and said "Detriot". This was not an accident, this was not a rhetorical florish; this was specific and intentional, to evoke a specific, and intentional response--vote for me, I saved Detroit. The emotional effect is readily evident.

As for this bankruptcy, this could've and should've happened years ago. Guess who got paid hundreds of millions of dollars in the interim (hint--the Wall Street bankers). While suckers like Dave Bing and the union heads believed the lie that bankrupcy could be avoided if they just borrow a few hundred million more dollars. And that those more recent bonds be secured. So, in bankruptcy they get paid while the unions get stiffed worse than they would have been stiffed in 2009.

Even a dumbass like me saw through that scam.

Well, at least this is finally the end. Since everything is fixed now economy-wise, no other big city and municipality will have to face bankruptcy in the next few years. Chicago, Los Angeles, Sacramento (insert point guard joke here), New Jersey are all on firm financial footing, and have nothing to worry about.

As for GM and Chrysler--they'll be back for more bankruptcy and more bailouts too. I see through that scam too. I can sell a shitload of cars, or anything, at 0% when the Fed is shoveling me the cash. For a while. But not for long.

Post by **brian** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:04 am

I think there's probably like zero people in the country who thought Obama was referring to the municipality of Detroit when he said that and NOT the Big Three, but with that exception I agree with everything else you said. I'm sure when Chicago declares bankruptcy in 18 to 24 months all of the Mr. D wannabees like TTB will post their tired jokes about Chicago in that thread.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:35 am

So, you callin' me a zero.

Well, I guess I can't argue your math.

(Just fucking wit ya)

teeteebee · Post by **teeteebee** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:40 pm

Brian - You fool. Your ilk is why Detroit is where it is. Population going fron 2 million to 700k when folks rushed to the suburbs or other towns. As for a wannabe mr d, that's pretty funny. Almost as funny as your satellite pride in Motown.

As for Chicago going next, I wouldn't be surprised if Philly isn't close as well. This democratic machine we have here is an absolute joke. Chicago is corrupt but Philly is no slouch either. Here's a little tidbit about the council presidents personal situation that hit the net recently. Our papers don't report anything because of intimidation. I know stories about things from talking with friends that work in certain city services that would cause an uproar if they were disclosed. Our voter base sees D and just pulls the lever. It's fucking ridiculous.

http://dirtydaughter.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eta: link and spelling

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:45 pm

teeteebee · Post by **teeteebee** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:49 pm

Johnnie wrote:

Awesome. Can you make one that says "I am as white as George Zimmerman"?

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:08 pm

Of course. Not exactly the thread for it, so here's a link:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:31 pm

Whoa, the only time you'd be a slumier slumlord is playing Monopoly. In real life you can do this in Detroit right now.

How Cheap Are Houses In Detroit Right Now? [Buzzfeed Link]

Baltic, Mediterranean, Oriental, Vermont, and Connecticut look pretty damn sweet, if I do say so myself.

howard · Post by **howard** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:23 pm

A key part of the scam, perpetrated by Wall Street, leading the politicians and labor leaders by the nose, is to drag shit out for years, piling more and more debt obligations onto Detroit, so when the oft-delayed bankruptcy finally occurs, that many more assets can be 'privatized' or flat out sold.

But, this is too fucking far:

Detroit's bankruptcy could spell good-bye for Howdy Doody

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:09 am

howard wrote:Well, at least this is finally the end. Since everything is fixed now economy-wise, no other big city and municipality will have to face bankruptcy in the next few years. Chicago, Los Angeles, Sacramento (insert point guard joke here), New Jersey are all on firm financial footing, and have nothing to worry about.

As for GM and Chrysler--they'll be back for more bankruptcy and more bailouts too. I see through that scam too. I can sell a shitload of cars, or anything, at 0% when the Fed is shoveling me the cash. For a while. But not for long.

Where's the orange text on paragraph 1?

4 years ago, I would have expected Jersey to be in bankruptcy now. So maybe things have started turning around. BTW, you missed Philly & Oakland in your list of at risk municipalities...

GM is actually making a better product, so that is helping them.
Chrysler got bought out(again), so hopefully this ownership group can right the ship. They have already started to invest money in the product line, which is a good start...

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:57 am

This is the answer.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer ... t=sc_t2_a7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rass · Post by **rass** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:09 am

wlu_lax6 wrote:This is the answer.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer ... t=sc_t2_a7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Detroit should definitely let the Greek guy lead them out of this mess.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:22 pm

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:31 pm

rass wrote:
wlu_lax6 wrote:This is the answer.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer ... t=sc_t2_a7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Detroit should definitely let the Greek guy lead them out of this mess.

The guy seems like a great property developer. He only paid a half-million for the Silverdome, and just look at the improvements he's made to that building...

Keg · Post by **Keg** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:27 am

What's the downside to buying a bunch of these abondoned foreclosed homes in Detroit that are selling for a dollar?

Post by **brian** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:32 am

Keg wrote:What's the downside to buying a bunch of these abondoned foreclosed homes in Detroit that are selling for a dollar?

Once you own the house, you're responsible for tearing it down which can usually cost more than the land underneath it is worth.

Keg · Post by **Keg** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:57 am

That's nothing that a bus load of Mexicans cant take care of on the cheap.

Seriously though, I've read stories about old dying towns in the midwest being revived by latino immigrants being bussed in to work in meat packing factories (and similar jobs). Is this not something Detroit can do? Or is there no hope? Too much corruption? What is the city doing to bring people back into town?

I find this story fascinating, please post any interesting links yall may come across.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:01 pm

This is interesting to me: New $444 million hockey arena is still a go in Detroit

Detroit's financial crisis hasn't derailed the city's plans to spend more than $400 million in Michigan taxpayer funds on a new hockey arena for the Red Wings.

It's absolutely ridiculous that taxpayers still fund shit like this. But hey! You don't want to be the fiscally responsible person in office to say no because your ass and livelihood are more important than representing people. Even if those people don't understand you'd be doing them a favor.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:11 pm

Typically the $1 houses come with a bill for back taxes. the $5000 range of houses may have no tax or other liens attached, but like brian said.

The next broad issue--whomever is left standing in Detroit, be they newcomer or native, can look forward to being taxed heavily. I mean heavily compared to whatever tax cost exists right now. And the whole range of taxes--use fees, licenses for demo, reno, construction, anything they can think of to tax the few sources of value.

Flipping back and forth between the paired stategies, more debt vs more 'austerity' is what happens when the consequences of stupid policy, corruption and theft by Wall Street are postponed and avoided. More debt fails--lets raise taxes and be austere. Austerity fails--lets borrow more.

You get to pick your path to failure. You get to postpone the recognition of the failure. You do not get to avoid the consequences of failure for more than a while. They will come home to roost--this is a matter of arithmetic, not a matter of opinion.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:46 pm

I happened to see this just now:

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... state.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:19 am

I already posted the link. Might as well post a sarcastic picture too.

Post by **brian** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:46 am

While I'm against taxpayer funded stadia, it's probably important to note that projects that actually generate jobs are precisely what Detroit needs right now. We can battle the pros and cons of using public money for that kind of stuff and we've done it and I'm largely against it (and again specifically this project), but there's a lot of finer points here that the Johnnie's of the world don't really get into with their pithy memes:

* The Ilitch family is paying for 60-65 percent of the total cost of the project much like it did with Comerica Park, so it's not exactly like Detroit's taxpayers are completely on the hook.
* The tax district in question (if anyone actually bothered to read any of the stories) is ONLY for the downtown area, which is actually doing quite well. There has been considerably re-investment in downtown Detroit even apart from the (relatively) new baseball and football stadiums, not the least of which are the new GM and Compuware headquarters. Recouping the bonds with property taxes from those businesses doesn't really affect John Q. Taxpayer very much and will mean an exceptionally unlikely chance of default.

So, specifically this project -- Ford Field and Comerica Park's public contributions were funded with an additional tax on rental cars for the entire county of Wayne (which notably includes Wayne County Metropolitan International Airport). That was approved by Wayne County voters back in the late 90s. With my stated objection to public funding for stadiums on the record, this levy didn't really bother me as much (as a Wayne County resident at the time) because it was paid largely by visitors to the area, mostly for business. Of course, I've paid the levy a few times since then ironically enough, but I still think as these things go, it wasn't the worst idea on the world. So I'm curious why they didn't go that route to extend funding for the new hockey arena (which by the way, DOES need to be built somewhere somehow -- Joe Louis Arena is a fucking dump).

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:01 pm

brian wrote:Recouping the bonds with property taxes from those businesses doesn't really affect John Q. Taxpayer very much and will mean an exceptionally unlikely chance of default.

Somehow you are right.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2013/07/ ... ankruptcy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:20 am

The Johnnies of the world just want to be smart asses and poke fun at the worst time possible. I haven't the slightest clue how to run a city, let alone figure in tax bumps on rental cars that mostly hit out of towners on business, and then parlay that money elsewhere for infrastructure.

I just really, really hate when billionaires get to use that money under the presumption that if they don't, they can then claim victim and hold the city hostage for it and threaten to move the team. Now maybe I haven't checked up on franchises after they get new stadiums, but I really want to know if the owners pay that money back in some way. It always seems that Johnnie Q. Public then gets hit with some random tax on something else while also need to spend $$$ on food/drink in that brand new stadium.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:57 am

I wouldn't lump the Ilich's in with the Maloofs of the world, personally.

Of course, the Tigers/Red Wings are far more fabric of the city than the Kings are(or the Supersonics were), by far.