Common Core

[Gunpowder]

Haven't followed this at all, barely know what it is on quick look-up outside of it being national standards for kids on a per-grade basis. But it appears to be becoming a thing.

Peeps in the know - is there any reason that it is bad OTHER THAN the whole "Federal takeover of education!" aspect? On a scale from 0 to 10, how many fucks should I give? 10 obviously being the most fucks.

[The Sybian]

Haven't followed this at all, barely know what it is on quick look-up outside of it being national standards for kids on a per-grade basis. But it appears to be becoming a thing.

Peeps in the know - is there any reason that it is bad OTHER THAN the whole "Federal takeover of education!" aspect? On a scale from 0 to 10, how many fucks should I give? 10 obviously being the most fucks.

I give one fuck, because my second graders math problems took me several minutes to figure out. There is no reason for equation sentences and whatever the fuck they call their number slide bar. Simple math problems are made much more complex, and it makes no damned sense.

I'll let Stephen Colbert explain:

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/n ... -confusion

Oh, and Common Core is teaching kids how to be gay.

[mister d]

I still have a few years before this has to ruin my life as well, but isn't the issue with Common Core (and NCLB and all that) the standardized testing and the fact that teachers are rewarded or non-punished for teaching to the test rather than teaching to learn?

[Gunpowder]

Haven't followed this at all, barely know what it is on quick look-up outside of it being national standards for kids on a per-grade basis. But it appears to be becoming a thing.

Peeps in the know - is there any reason that it is bad OTHER THAN the whole "Federal takeover of education!" aspect? On a scale from 0 to 10, how many fucks should I give? 10 obviously being the most fucks.

I give one fuck, because my second graders math problems took me several minutes to figure out. There is no reason for equation sentences and whatever the fuck they call their number slide bar. Simple math problems are made much more complex, and it makes no damned sense.

I'll let Stephen Colbert explain:

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/n ... -confusion

Oh, and Common Core is teaching kids how to be gay.

I'll watch the video, but is there a reason? If problems hadn't been made more complex in the past, we'd have never heard the phrase "show your work".

[Sabo]

That kid's answer in the Colbert video is awesome.

[Jerloma]

In theory it's great but it's tough to apply. Americans generally don't place a lot of value on critical thinking and in this day and age when answers are basically right at our fingertips, it's even harder to make kids think about how they arrive at answers.

Let's say you buy something for $3.46 and you have a 20. When you figure out your change, you don't start at 20 and subtract. You count up from 46 and add .04 to get to $3.50 and then add 50 to get to $4 and then add $1 to get to $5 and then add $15 to get to $20. Happens a lot faster than that but that's generally the way our brains work. So why teach it the opposite way?

[Sabo]

Let's say you buy something for $3.46 and you have a 20. When you figure out your change, you don't start at 20 and subtract.

I do. I figured out your change is $16.54 in two subtractions ... 20-4 (not 3 because you have to factor in the 100 in the next subtraction) and then 100-46. Realize it's dollars and cents and you can figure out where to put the decimal point ... $16.54.

[Gunpowder]

Let's say you buy something for $3.46 and you have a 20. When you figure out your change, you don't start at 20 and subtract.

I do. I figured out your change is $16.54 in two subtractions ... 20-4 (not 3 because you have to factor in the 100 in the next subtraction) and then 100-46. Realize it's dollars and cents and you can figure out where to put the decimal point ... $16.54.

Same. I start from 20 because it's nice round number. When I do mental math I typically round to a nice number and then add/subtract the rounding at the end.

[The Sybian]

Same. I start from 20 because it's nice round number. When I do mental math I typically round to a nice number and then add/subtract the rounding at the end.

This. I just thought Colbert nailed my reaction the first day of second grade as I reviewed my son's math homework.And I thought it was funny.

[Jerloma]

In general of course. We're elite over here at the Swamp so it wouldn't be an indicative sample to the general population.

[govmentchedda]

I still have a few years before this has to ruin my life as well, but isn't the issue with Common Core (and NCLB and all that) the standardized testing and the fact that teachers are rewarded or non-punished for teaching to the test rather than teaching to learn?

This is my major complaint with how schools are run here. To me, it's less a "common core" issue, than a school grade issue. Thank god my wife knows her shit about early childhood education, and continually participates and learns more about this stuff as my kids grow older. She/we have the boys in what we believe is one of the better magnet (not charter) schools in the county, and are very happy with it.

[elflaco]

not liking what i'm seeing this past year (2nd going into 3rd).
not every math problem needs to be a word problem.
the boy gets the right answers very quickly, but falters when asked to write down how he came up with it.

very middle of the road. that and the eliminiation of advanced placement/gifted and talented.

the world need someone to pump gas. let them take the remedial classes.

[Shirley]

Haven't followed this at all, barely know what it is on quick look-up outside of it being national standards for kids on a per-grade basis. But it appears to be becoming a thing.

Peeps in the know - is there any reason that it is bad OTHER THAN the whole "Federal takeover of education!" aspect? On a scale from 0 to 10, how many fucks should I give? 10 obviously being the most fucks.

What's funny about the vast majority of complaining about Common Core is that it's NOT a "Federal takeover of education." The program was built by a coalition of governors (mostly Republican), not federal officials.

But it's national, so folks assume national = federal. Therefore, it comes from that Obama commie and therefore it's bad.

As for the actual content, I don't know that the word problems and stuff are actually specified by the standards. Maybe they are. In general though, I think it's supposed to be an attempt to improve our math and science education by asking more of our kids - just like kids in all of the countries kicking our ass in STEM. If teachers are giving crappy, confusing problems, that's an issue with them or the math source they are using - not the actual math topics that CC requires.

I don't think Common Core adds in any more standardized testing on top of what's already happening everywhere. That trend began way before Common Core.

[EdRomero]

The video above made the rounds last year, and the math problem she cited (about 90 seconds in) is the type of nonsense I try to help students figure out all year. I haven't researched Common Core specifically, but my experience teaching to a test (4th grade Virginia History!), all the stupid test prep I help students with now, and all the lost learning time caused by students taking tests has done nothing to improve education and has hurt children socially, physically (less recess and gym for 6-year-olds because the teacher gets fired if they don't remember some phonics), and psychologically. All so politicians can get votes by claiming they're trying to improve schools and fighting those mean teacher unions and academia elitists (who are part of the problem too). Not to mention all the profits involved in testing and "fixing" education

[EdRomero]

not liking what i'm seeing this past year (2nd going into 3rd).
not every math problem needs to be a word problem.
the boy gets the right answers very quickly, but falters when asked to write down how he came up with it.

Another huge problem. In the past you could struggle in language arts and thrive in math. Very tough to do now with so much dependency on reading comprehension to solve a math problem. And it hurts ESL students in the one subject they actually have a chance to show great success.

[cerrano]

What's funny about the vast majority of complaining about Common Core is that it's NOT a "Federal takeover of education." The program was built by a coalition of governors (mostly Republican), not federal officials.

But it's national, so folks assume national = federal. Therefore, it comes from that Obama commie and therefore it's bad.

there is some validity in the complaint. true, the program was built by the national governors foundation with significant funding from bill and melinda gates foundation, to the tune of, by some estimates, almost $200 million. however, the dept. of ed. awarded $350 million to the two organizations that produce the common core tests which serve as cornerstones for the "race to the top" initiative that ties federal aid to state compliance with common core standards. common core was announced a little over a month before rttp. if not a takeover...

As for the actual content, I don't know that the word problems and stuff are actually specified by the standards. Maybe they are. In general though, I think it's supposed to be an attempt to improve our math and science education by asking more of our kids - just like kids in all of the countries kicking our ass in STEM. If teachers are giving crappy, confusing problems, that's an issue with them or the math source they are using - not the actual math topics that CC requires.

first, when comparing the us to other countries, it's really easy to view the PISA scores used for the comparison and notice that america is 21st in math and blah, blah, blah. first, america is one of the only nations in the world where thorough and efficient education is promised to every citizen regardless of ability or handicap. the PISA testing population in the US does not weed out special education students as other nations do through the absence of a comparable mandate, or the enrollment of those students in vocational programs. in addition, when comparing international students from similar socioeconomic backgrounds, it becomes clear that the us compares very favorably with those nations that are "kicking our ass" in the areas of science and math literacy.

but the crappy confusing problems you mention are taken from the common core prep materials that are provided to school districts via lucrative contracts with the pearson's of the world.

and that brings me to my primary objection with common core. the committee of 30 people that created the standards in 2009 was comprised mostly of representatives from the testing industry, 12 of whom were from college board alone. (it's no coincidence that the head of the common core committee, william coleman, is not the head of college board.) were not talking about recent classroom educators here. it would be akin to having a national committee to develop standards of medical treatment composed primarily of representatives of the pharmaceutical industry. the lack of educational expertise involved in the creation of the standards, as well as the inherent conflicts of interest of the participants taints the policy. there is a shitload of money to be made in an industry that has a mandate to serve every single citizen from the age of 5 until the age of 18.

add to that the emphasis on computer-based testing and big data, and it isn't difficult to understand the motivations of those pusing the new testing/data regime. take someone like former nj dept. of education commission chris cerf who was responsible for implementing much of the new testing and data-tracking in the state of new jersey. in february, he left his state post to head amplify education, joel kleins "educational technology solutions" company. amplify was awarded $2.3 million in contracts from the newark school system 2 weeks after it was announced that cerf would be taking over. oh, and newark is state-controlled. i'll give you one guess as to who hired hired the newark superintendent.

I don't think Common Core adds in any more standardized testing on top of what's already happening everywhere. That trend began way before Common Core.

while the trend did begin before common core, there will be significantly more testing next year in nj. it will be incredibly disruptive, and not in a corporate-speak positive way.

this shit is fucked up and shit.

eta: edited for clarity in the cerf section.

[cerrano]

The video above made the rounds last year, and the math problem she cited (about 90 seconds in) is the type of nonsense I try to help students figure out all year. I haven't researched Common Core specifically, but my experience teaching to a test (4th grade Virginia History!), all the stupid test prep I help students with now, and all the lost learning time caused by students taking tests has done nothing to improve education and has hurt children socially, physically (less recess and gym for 6-year-olds because the teacher gets fired if they don't remember some phonics), and psychologically. All so politicians can get votes by claiming their trying to improve schools and fighting those mean teacher unions and academia elitists (who are part of the problem too). Not to mention all the profits involved in testing and "fixing" education

especially democratic politicians who want to attract wall street money by demonstrating their anti-union street cred on an something they can characterize as a "civil rights" issue. its the best of both worlds.

[testuser2]

but the crappy confusing problems you mention are taken from the common core prep materials that are provided to school districts via lucrative contracts with the pearson's of the world.

This is a big part of the problem. The large content companies are influencing the policymakers. Common core isn't a bad idea. It's just going down a path driven by vendors and their profits. It's no different than what's go on with fracking.

It looks like publishers(McGraw Hill, Pearson, etc..) are trying to use the standards/content market to pick up on lost textbook revenue. They can't raise book prices much further. So they need to start providing the "extra" content.

[Shirley]

I don't think Common Core adds in any more standardized testing on top of what's already happening everywhere. That trend began way before Common Core.

while the trend did begin before common core, there will be significantly more testing next year in nj. it will be incredibly disruptive, and not in a corporate-speak positive way.

Ah, maybe it's getting worse. My son had no more standardized testing this year than in normal years. Granted, he already takes maybe three different standardized tests (he was in fifth grade). He took the regular EOG tests plus Iowa Basic (I think that's for kids who did in the prior year EOG) and some other one I'm forgetting.

Fortunately, we live in a cushy suburb where the kids are pretty much all going to do well on the EOGs, so it isn't something the schools need to stress all year.

For Common Core, yes, my son did bring home a few of those stupid "number sentence" problems, but not too many. I didn't feel they were that much worse than some of the other strange math stuff both of my kids were subjected too over the years. I haven't been impressed at all with the way they teach elementary math these days - either before or after Common Core.

[Jerloma]

Why is this so hard?

This is maddening and angering and frustrating. This is why so many parents are so upset. They cannot help their children. The math makes no sense and seems to offer no practical purpose other than it is new. The teachers privately concede the uselessness of it.

But major corporations and government entities insist that it be done. Parents and children feel helpless. My wife wants to murder someone over it.

This is why Jeb Bush will not be President. It is also going to end very, very badly for many other politicians. The only champions of common core I know are paid to like it and most of them have no kids. These people want worker bees in their cogs. They want automatons. They do not want productive, independent citizens.

Can someone here actually say with a straight face that they can't help their kid figure out subtraction that way? There are clear steps and each step is even explained in text. Yes, you may not like it and I personally would probably just subtract 25 to get to 300 and then 13 to get to 287 but this isn't being done in their heads. Why is that so confusing?

[mister d]

I have no fucking clue what's going on there and I'm not a standard math person.

[HaulCitgo]

Conceptually that makes a lot more sense than standard multi digit subtraction. Its more work so it probably wont get much use but it is helpful to explain the concept of subtraction as the amount you would count up from one number to get to the higher number. Otherwise, it is easy to learn the mechanics of subtraction without understanding the concept. This is what people want... substance over form.

[Shirley]

It's one of those things that reads a lot more complicated than it is.

While I got annoyed when my son had to do this sort of math, I get the value for many kids. In math, there are nearly always many ways to solve a problem. Learning that is one of the keys to actually being good at math (this concept is the one that I think is lost on many of the CC critics). The problem is that many teachers seem to think that kids need to actually learn ALL of the various techniques. For kids that can already do math the "regular" way, having to also do it all of these other ways just becomes tedious busy work. I suspect that teachers that care more about HOW kids do math problems than whether they can find the answer themselves really aren't that good at math themselves.

Instead, they should just take time in class to show several addition/subtraction/multiplication/etc techniques. Show that they can all work and in fact, they are all related. Then let kids go with whatever technique works for them.

[vandwagon]

In my limited exposure to the arguments against Common Core, a lot of it seems to come down to the fact that this is not how parents learned to do it so it must be wrong. I'm likely oversimplifying, but I can't help but think that.

I have a first grader so I'm not deep into it, but I'm trying to keep an open mind about how teaching certain things has changed since I was in school.

[Jerloma]

It's not even like the concept of rounding up to the nearest ten, hundred, etc is a new thing.

[boxcar]

just use a calculator.

[Johnnie]

Here's how my brain works: I subtracted 13 from 300. I initially subtracted 25 from 38 and then subtracted that from 300. When I looked at "counting up," I thought "too cumbersome." Of course, I basically spoke math in school so it's no thing for me.

Why you just cannot write it out with the large number over the small number and work right to left, I have no idea.

[Rush2112]

In my limited exposure to the arguments against Common Core, a lot of it seems to come down to the fact that this is not how parents learned to do it so it must be wrong. I'm likely oversimplifying, but I can't help but think that.

I have a first grader so I'm not deep into it, but I'm trying to keep an open mind about how teaching certain things has changed since I was in school.

I sort of recall learning some basic math by some weird method using our hands made into fists and some process of counting knuckles and whatever the spaces between the knuckles are called (similar to the months of the year technique.)

Educational tastes man.

[DSafetyGuy]

My concern is that it seems like it takes about two or three times as long than doing the "borrow a one" style I was taught. That problem was five steps (four "count up" moves, then "add all the numbers"). I guess all of the "borrowing ones" adds up as steps, but...

[elflaco]

as i recall, the school i went to for elementary school in Bogota was a Belgian-led institution.. lots of 70's type of stuff... but math was learned through regletas (rods), at least in 1-3rd grade... it did somehow relate current common core
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisenaire_rods

my memory is very fuzzy but it was a bit of a stretch to then have learn how math was done here.

carry on.

gunners!

[The Sybian]

as i recall, the school i went to for elementary school in Bogota was a Belgian-led institution.. lots of 70's type of stuff... but math was learned through regletas (rods), at least in 1-3rd grade... it did somehow relate current common core
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuisenaire_rods

my memory is very fuzzy but it was a bit of a stretch to then have learn how math was done here.

carry on.

gunners!

COYG!!!!

[howard]

Students Thankful Standardized Curriculum Sparing Them From Free-Spirited Teacher’s Antics

[joeyclams]

Is there a problem teaching kids subtraction that we need a new technique that takes more time to do? I just don't get the reason behind this. Not that it's hard to understand but why would you ever do this?

[Gunpowder]

Is there a problem teaching kids subtraction that we need a new technique that takes more time to do? I just don't get the reason behind this. Not that it's hard to understand but why would you ever do this?

We kind of do it in physics with vectors. I can't dismiss an educational technique out of hand just for that reason.

[testuser2]

I think common core math is getting many complaints because parents see it as an elimination of how they learned math. It's really an expansion of methods and more focus on problem solving. Instead of the old borrow the "ten" format in subtraction it provides several different methods. None of which are wrong, but they should lead to a better understanding of the base ideas(addition/subtraction). Those build into the more complex ideas of multiplication/division.

I do like that it is introducing the idea of problem solving and simple algorithms at a much younger age. The answer to 13-4 will always be 9, but there are multiple ways to get there. Students should be able to pick the best way for them and then use that method to get to the answer.

The second part of common core that really causes the issue is the loss of local control for what students need to learn. eg: creation vs evolution. I would love to see more emphasis on understanding religion. It would be awesome if the next generation could understand the basic tenets of religions other than their own. I'm guessing that a large percentage of American's have no idea about Jesus in Islam. I tried to explain it to an aunt one time and it almost came to blows. It all started because I made a comment to her after a missionary came to my parents church begging for money to teach the Muslims about Jesus. I said that they must not be very good Muslims if they didn't know their major prophets.

[Jerloma]

Yeah, I agree. Religion has so much influence on society that it's important to understand what people believe and why they believe it. Only yesterday, I learned what would happen if I brushed my teeth during Yom Kippur. From what I remember of school, I learned a lot about ancient pagan religions but never of active religions. Well, except Catholicism in religion class which wasn't so much teaching as it was telling. I have to assume it has something to do with offending sensibilities, like what happened with your aunt.

[The Sybian]

It all started because I made a comment to her after a missionary came to my parents church begging for money to teach the Muslims about Jesus. I said that they must not be very good Muslims if they didn't know their major prophets.

I wonder how those donors would have felt if a missionary came to them trying to teach them about Muhammad. "But that is completely different because..." I completely agree, religion should be taught as a cultural, philosophical way of understanding history and the development of the world. I also think it would be great if kids were taught numerous religions in order to understand other people, and get a better perspective to question and understand the religion you were born into. You can't understand yourself until you understand others. This is probably why Fundie Christians don't want all religions taught, because it might force kids to think critically. Plus Common Core is a Liberal brainwashing technique to push the gay agenda.