Old Timey Music for Howard and DC

[Jerloma]

Found a Greg Allman ticket stub last night from a show 14 years ago that I have absolutely no recollection of. Guess I'm in the club now.

Yeah, I apparently saw REM in 95 and cannot for the life of me remember one thing about it.

[DC47]

Emmylou is so great. She would play The Palms in Davis about once a year through the 80s, I caught her at least a half dozen times over the years. Like an angel.

As usual, you are way ahead of me musically. I've seen her only once in person that I can recall.

However, I do have the advantage of marrying a woman whose photos in her 20s look so much like Emmylou at the same age that I once fooled my oldest daughter by showing her a picture of the latter. She wondered what a picture of her mom was doing on the internet.

SanCarlos wrote: Yes, yes. I, too, love Emmylou. And, music aside, she has aged beautifully.

Of course, none of us look now like we did back then. We probably didn't even back then.

Emmylou was pretty then. Now she's beautiful.

[DC47]

Found a Greg Allman ticket stub last night from a show 14 years ago that I have absolutely no recollection of. Guess I'm in the club now.

You remember other things from that year, at least if reminded of them. I imagine you're several steps ahead of Gregg in this regards.

[DC47]

Found a Greg Allman ticket stub last night from a show 14 years ago that I have absolutely no recollection of. Guess I'm in the club now.

Yeah, I apparently saw REM in 95 and cannot for the life of me remember one thing about it.

You tried to climb up on stage during that song about religion and a roadie threw you to the floor on your head. So, no wonder.

[Rush2112]

I'm not looking forward to Hillary's version of Uptown Funk.

[howard]

Haven't thought of that in ages. Wrong year; came out in 1967, but that nit wouldn't matter to you young-uns.

[Rush2112]

and the song came out in '65/'66 (Wild Ones/Troggs.) Youtube posters suck all around.

[Rush2112]

God, I love that early prog.

[howard]

This thread is a lot of fun.

Coolest thing I heard on the radio today:

[Rush2112]

I've been reading this




Stills is a dick.

[DC47]

No doubt, by all accounts.

But look at the life he was in. Very few could stand in his shoes and be a wonderful human being. Which one of the guys on the book cover comes across as a sweetheart? None is obvious to me.

And at least one was a monster, according to a credible, first-hand account that I heard back in the '70s. That discussion certainly opened my mind to the possibility that everything the pop stars -- including the gentle singer-songwriters -- wrote about was roughly 180 degrees off from their actual characters.

That was one of the hidden sides of the 'peace and love' era.

[Rush2112]

Nash wasn't all that bad of guy & Garfunkle was a mild mannered math teacher for the most part.

[sancarlos]

Not necessarily disagreeing, but to pick a nit, I wouldn't say Stills was a dick "by all accounts". In his autobiography, Neil Young expressed much affection and respect for Stephen Stills. Perhaps because of their stint in Buffalo Springfield together, Neil clearly feels/felt more of a kinship with Stills than with either Crosby or Nash.

[DC47]

Nash wasn't all that bad of guy & Garfunkle was a mild mannered math teacher for the most part.

Nash was nice in comparison to his band mates. At least that's the public version. There are many stories that suggest that Nash had his problems in the 70s. Cocaine abuse puts you on a bad path, for starters.

Art Garfunkle was also the "nice in comparison" kind of guy. But as with Nash, there are stories to the contrary. Some square with the notion that he was an irresponsible stoner who serially used and dumped women.

Do you think Browne's sources were so good that he really got all that far behind the public personna's of these rock stars?

[Rush2112]

Nash wasn't all that bad of guy & Garfunkle was a mild mannered math teacher for the most part.

Nash was nice in comparison to his band mates. At least that's the public version. There are many stories that suggest that Nash had his problems in the 70s. Cocaine abuse puts you on a bad path, for starters.

Art Garfunkle was also the "nice in comparison" kind of guy. But as with Nash, there are stories to the contrary. Some square with the notion that he was an irresponsible stoner who serially used and dumped women.

Do you think Browne's sources were so good that he really got all that far behind the public personna's of these rock stars?

He's not really painting them all in a great light.

Art was in a steady relationship for the majority of the 70s. He did dump the girl that talked him into teaching, but who's becoming a not playing the field a bit? He was in a relationship from 74 (IIRC) to 79 with Birdy, that is until she committed suicide.

There are always stories to the contrary, I was reading last night that Nash stole a girl from under Stills, some middle school shit, but he seems to be, at least in my reading, the calm influence in the band and the one that didn't fly off the handle because someone got an extra solo (both Stills and Crosby did this many times.)

[Rush2112]

They could fall out of bead and harmonize at this moment.



and this should be the American national anthem.

[DC47]

Nash wasn't all that bad of guy & Garfunkle was a mild mannered math teacher for the most part.

Nash was nice in comparison to his band mates. At least that's the public version. There are many stories that suggest that Nash had his problems in the 70s. Cocaine abuse puts you on a bad path, for starters.

Art Garfunkle was also the "nice in comparison" kind of guy. But as with Nash, there are stories to the contrary. Some square with the notion that he was an irresponsible stoner who serially used and dumped women.

Do you think Browne's sources were so good that he really got all that far behind the public personna's of these rock stars?

He's not really painting them all in a great light.

Art was in a steady relationship for the majority of the 70s. He did dump the girl that talked him into teaching, but who's becoming a not playing the field a bit? He was in a relationship from 74 (IIRC) to 79 with Birdy, that is until she committed suicide.

There are always stories to the contrary, I was reading last night that Nash stole a girl from under Stills, some middle school shit, but he seems to be, at least in my reading, the calm influence in the band and the one that didn't fly off the handle because someone got an extra solo (both Stills and Crosby did this many times.)

My take is that Nash did a lot of bad things in the '70s -- par for the coke-head, rock star course. But C, S, and Y were orders of magnitude larger assholes, due to a combination of bigger character flaws, greater stardom, and at least in Crosby's case, wildly uncontrollable drug use (though S and Y were out there too). So Nash looks like a good guy. But only in that context. Not if he was your neighbor or brother-in-law. Browne is unlikely to have good enough sources to get behind the facade with Nash. And there is so much more dirt on guys like James Taylor, so a book author is going to pick the low-hanging fruit, rather than put up a tall ladder to get the small stuff at the top of the tree.

[Rush2112]

Nash wasn't all that bad of guy & Garfunkle was a mild mannered math teacher for the most part.

Nash was nice in comparison to his band mates. At least that's the public version. There are many stories that suggest that Nash had his problems in the 70s. Cocaine abuse puts you on a bad path, for starters.

Art Garfunkle was also the "nice in comparison" kind of guy. But as with Nash, there are stories to the contrary. Some square with the notion that he was an irresponsible stoner who serially used and dumped women.

Do you think Browne's sources were so good that he really got all that far behind the public personna's of these rock stars?

He's not really painting them all in a great light.

Art was in a steady relationship for the majority of the 70s. He did dump the girl that talked him into teaching, but who's becoming a not playing the field a bit? He was in a relationship from 74 (IIRC) to 79 with Birdy, that is until she committed suicide.

There are always stories to the contrary, I was reading last night that Nash stole a girl from under Stills, some middle school shit, but he seems to be, at least in my reading, the calm influence in the band and the one that didn't fly off the handle because someone got an extra solo (both Stills and Crosby did this many times.)

My take is that Nash did a lot of bad things in the '70s -- par for the coke-head, rock star course. But C, S, and Y were orders of magnitude larger assholes, due to a combination of bigger character flaws, greater stardom, and at least in Crosby's case, wildly uncontrollable drug use (though S and Y were out there too). So Nash looks like a good guy. But only in that context. Not if he was your neighbor or brother-in-law. Browne is unlikely to have good enough sources to get behind the facade with Nash. And there is so much more dirt on guys like James Taylor, so a book author is going to pick the low-hanging fruit, rather than put up a tall ladder to get the small stuff at the top of the tree.

It also concentrated on 1970 with only a few pieces that were drawn out to finish a narrative, so perhaps the behaviors that are later don't have much play in 1970...aside from stealing a chick from your bandmate.

[howard]

Unheralded guitar god Roy Buchanan

[DC47]

That is really good. I'm listening to the beginning of a live Buchanan concert as I type this. I don't think I've heard him play in the past decade. He never made hits, and didn't even cut a lot of albums. He wasn't a big time sideman. Somehow he was always between the cracks. Then he died young, preventing a big re-discovery and tours of the lost genius.

But having not heard him in many years, and having no great expectations, I'm surprised and impressed. He's got tone to spare, restraint, and abundant technique. Also a grounding in gospel and blues, which always earns points from me.

I recall Hendrix was said to like how Buchanan played, and vice versa. But I don't hear a lot of similarity.

The player who Buchanan reminds me of is Danny Gatton. He was even more unknown, and also died young of apparent suicide. There's a bit more country in his licks -- especially below -- but he played jazz and rock with equal ease. Like Buchanan, Gatton is a technical monster, with creativity and taste. That's a much rarer combo than commonly assumed.



More Gatton genius. This is not at all your straightforward blues-rock. Many guitarists will pass out if they watch this. He's doing more with his right hand in six minutes than many great rock guitarists do in a year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUpP7CnW4yA

This is just an awesome display of chops and musicianship. Gatton seemed to have never heard of a single blues cliche.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxZpE9DQM3A

[DC47]

[My take is that Nash did a lot of bad things in the '70s -- par for the coke-head, rock star course. But C, S, and Y were orders of magnitude larger assholes, due to a combination of bigger character flaws, greater stardom, and at least in Crosby's case, wildly uncontrollable drug use (though S and Y were out there too). So Nash looks like a good guy. But only in that context. Not if he was your neighbor or brother-in-law. Browne is unlikely to have good enough sources to get behind the facade with Nash. And there is so much more dirt on guys like James Taylor, so a book author is going to pick the low-hanging fruit, rather than put up a tall ladder to get the small stuff at the top of the tree.

It also concentrated on 1970 with only a few pieces that were drawn out to finish a narrative, so perhaps the behaviors that are later don't have much play in 1970...aside from stealing a chick from your bandmate.

Perhaps someday I will tell a tale from long ago. It involves a hot tub high on the hippie frontier, some men and women (naked, no less), and damage done in the CSN scene circa 1970.

[howard]

I don't know Gatton. I'll give it a listen (since the Clippers are mailing it in tonight.)

[DC47]

I've been digging into Roy Buchanan for the past hour or so. How much I missed when he was alive and playing!

Right now he's jamming on 'Shotgun' with Nils Lofgren. It reminds me of the cliched 'two paths' in life.

Buchanan seems to have eschewed commercial concerns so he could play what interested him. He never made much of a dent with the public, or made much money. Then he died.

His peer Lofgren did some great stuff with Neil Young, then cut some moderately commercial albums, and then took the steady, well-paying gig with Springsteen. No more jamming on 'Shotgun' with madmen like Buchanan. Just tight background riffs at modest volume and a few very controlled solos when Bruce points his way in exactly the same spot every time they play certain songs. What a thrill.

Oh my -- Buchanan is finishing off this song with a solo that includes tunefully de-tuning every fret of his guitar while Lofgren wails away. Yet another thing I've never seen done by a guitarist. Jimi had a huge trick bag from his R&B days, moves stolen from dozens of guitarists, but I never saw him do this.

I wonder if Lofgren misses those wild days?

[HDO45331]

This thread is a lot of fun.

Coolest thing I heard on the radio today:

howard, this album is in my top 10 all-time favorites; maybe top 5. Not a bad cut to be found. Chris Hillman and Al Perkins round it out. How this album got so little air time amazes me.

[howard]

I thought of you when I posted that cut.

[DC47]

howard, this album is in my top 10 all-time favorites; maybe top 5. Not a bad cut to be found. Chris Hillman and Al Perkins round it out. How this album got so little air time amazes me.

I bought both Manassas albums, as I was a big fan of Stills, Hillman and Perkins from their prior work. I liked the first, thought the second was okay, and was disappointed they didn't continue. The latin tinge wasn't heavy, but this was something different than the usual mix of blues-rock-folk. I was one of the minority who bought into the latin sound when Dizzy Gillespie introduced it into the bop jazz world, so I was in tune with the direction. And they could all really play.

I think they disappeared so quickly -- less than 2 years as a working band -- for two reasons.

First, they didn't have strong material. Stills and Hillman could write, but I guess this just wasn't their time. The song above was the exception, not the rule. There was a lot of pretty good stuff, played very well. But they didn't have hooks and thus didn't produce radio hits. The latin thing wasn't mainstream, so that was a strike against them. Commercial pressures were very strong. Record companies weren't willing to take large losses for what they would see as a vanity project by one of their important but not critical artists.

Second, the band was never a tight unit, and the players had other options. They had to make it big very quickly, or it was always likely that this unit would implode.

These guys didn't grow up together, or really know each other that well. It was basically Stills' backing band with Hillman and Perkins from the Burrito Brothers. It was a synthetic creation. Stills didn't have the charisma to hold them together -- and may not have even wanted to as he, even more than the others, had alternatives. Without hits, or at least a second big-name front man, they couldn't make enough money to keep a pretty big band (two guitars, pedal steel, keyboardist, two percussionists) of experienced (thus expensive) pros together.

Most of these guys had attractive options. That's a problem for bands; people weren't fully committed. I believe Hillman re-joined one of the many failed efforts at capitalizing on the Byrds name and fame. Then Souther-Hillman-Furay, another promising synthetic band that failed. Stills went back to the guys with the big-time inititials, who were guaranteed money-makers. Perkins was a monster pedal steel player and in big demand, so he went somewhere too. Each guy had a manager who was always looking for a better-paying gig, looking over their shoulders to see if the other principals were really in. So without immediate success to make this the most financially attractive, as well as musically attractive, option, this band was a goner. Also, I believe at least one guy in the rhythm section -- the drummer, Dallas Taylor? -- was a serious drug addict.

[howard]

Of these southern rock style bands, Poco was my favorite (second fav if you count Buffalo Springfield); although I was not a savvy enough fan to follow the personnel changes and interchanges (Byrds, Springfield, Souther/Hillman/Furay, Burritos, Loggins and Messina, Eagles, CSNY, Stone Poneys, et al).

I just knew what I liked as the records hit the radio airwaves, and the ones I really liked I bought (Souther/Hillman/Furay first album was one of those). Only years later did I learn the complex pedigrees of these bands. And I only came to appreciate the Burrito Bros later.

[DC47]

At one time I knew just about everyone who had ever played in all of those bands, down to the session players and guests.

At the time, as a young teen, I was all-in on three forms of rock/pop music. Soul and R&B, starting with the radio hits and working backwards to the roots. Blues, which pretty much meant the Allmans, and then working backwards. And country-rock. That meant the Byrds and the Burritos. Soon it included Commander Cody, Springfield, CSN, Young, Jackson Browne, Bonnie Raitt, and all that. I even liked the Dead when they were in country-rock mode circa 1972.

My first 'big time' rock concert was Dan Fogelberg with the Eagles. I liked Fogelberg (who was a country-rocker himself at the time), but loved the Eagles. This was circa their second album, so they were a full-on country-rock band (e.g., Take It Easy rather than Hotel California). So country that they played one song with at least five banjos on the stage - one plugged into an amp and played with a slide. Hard to believe -- the Eagles were a jamming, improvisational band at one time. I saw them as the logical extension of the Byrds, who to me were the American Beatles.

[howard]

I saw a Fogelberg show, freshman year at UCD I think, '75 or so.

Country enough for you? Don't care about the Eagles haters, I love this album (but me, I'm already gone.)



Crusin down the center of a two-way street
Wondering who's really in the drivers seat
Minding my business, along comes Big Brother
Said, "son, you better get on
One side or the other"

[DC47]

I wore that album out. And even had the tee shirt with the logo. Shortly thereafter I saw Tom Waits play, on the strength of this song. I listened to it many times, driving home at dawn.

It's amazing how far the Eagles fell, at least from my point of view. This is one band that would have benefited, musically at least, from having the leaders OD at 27.

Unfortunately, they lived to achieve their potential as the ultimate corporate rock band. We will never know if Janis would today be reproducing note-perfect karaoke of her biggest hits at a hedge fund managers' birthday party. I'd like to think not.

[howard]

I remember pulling out an Eagles mix cassette tape I had made, pre-Hotel California, years later to play for someone who said she was a big fan. She didn't recognize any tunes (maybe Take it Easy. Or Desperado as a Linda song.)

Funny thing, Ol' 55 brought me to Tom Waits.

[DC47]

I saw a Fogelberg show, freshman year at UCD I think, '75 or so.

I was a big fan of his in that era. Perhaps at least partly fueled by a girlfriend -- my first serious one -- who worshiped him. She thought I looked like Fogelberg. I did my best, including learning some of his songs on the guitar. Young love.

But we were not quite on the same track. She dumped me for the captain of the Harvard baseball team as I was getting my start as a lowly construction worker. Then she married an army officer who had recently graduated from West Point around the time I started my first commune, and joined in protests against nuclear plants and secret wars and such.

I still enjoy Fogelberg's first few albums, as well as the hit songs about his father and long-lost love. Some would say they're corny; I find them touching.

Perhaps I'll meet Laura in a grocery store some Christmas eve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYIWeow6W14

Back in the day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dEMVHpEhns

[DC47]

I remember pulling out an Eagles mix cassette tape I had made, pre-Hotel California, years later to play for someone who said she was a big fan. She didn't recognize any tunes (maybe Take it Easy. Or Desperado as a Linda song.)

Ah, the hazards of dating young. A friend once told me that he wouldn't date a woman who wasn't born yet when the Beatles had their first hit. It was an indicator of an abundance of future cultural barriers he didn't want to deal with. That showed his flexibility, as he was born 10 years earlier.

Funny thing, Ol' 55 brought me to Tom Waits.

I could never figure out which version I liked best. I heard the Eagles do it first, so it was hard to recalibrate to thinking of it as Waits' song. But no one could be more authentic about driving home in an old car at dawn than him. They must have dropped the obvious verse about the car breaking down, and the driver waiting in the rain, drunk and dirty, after he cut it.

Side note: the brilliant pedal steel guitar, dominating the mix in the Eagles' version?

Former Manassan Al Perkins. His work is all over tracks by Gram Parsons, the Burrito Brothers, Emmylou, Fogelberg, and a boatload of others, especially country musicians.

[howard]

I knew the name Al Perkins, but I have to admit I frequently confused him with Pete Kleinow. I figure I'm not the first to make that mistake since they both played in several of the same bands. I will make a point to distinguish the two.

[DC47]

I knew the name Al Perkins, but I have to admit I frequently confused him with Pete Kleinow. I figure I'm not the first to make that mistake since they both played in several of the same bands. I will make a point to distinguish the two.

Funny, I have a name confusion too. I have to think for a moment or I say 'Sam Perkins' rather than Al. I'd say that mine is the larger error.

Here's a cheat sheet. Sneaky Pete is the one with the cool nickname. He was a first gen country rock steel guitar player, a generation in front of Al, who most definitely was influenced by him. Pete was also a professional animator for 60s TV, and then again -- after playing with every great country-rock musician in the galaxy in the span of 10 years -- starting in the mid to late 70s in the era of Terminator and some of the Star Wars movies. I think he won awards. This is a pretty unusual vita for your basic country rocker. So he was into science fiction in a serious way. Related to this is his use of all kinds of early electronic effects (e.g., fuzz box) that few played on a steel guitar. So his sound was in the psychedelic (aka sci fi) bag, unlike the more pure country sound of Al Perkins.

Put another way, Al (aka Sam) Perkins was the one with the pure, smooth, classic moves, in the post and outside the arc. Sneaky Pete was the idiosyncratic genius, the grizzled old-timer who had the unpredictable, funky stuff going on.

[howard]

Very interesting, thanks.

[HDO45331]

[quote="DC47"][quote="howard"]I still enjoy Fogelberg's first few albums, as well as the hit songs about his father and long-lost love.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYIWeow6W14

Yes. Leader of the band. Dan, in concert one time, said that if he could have only written one song, this would be it. Did I mention that the final verse to this song was read at my father's funeral? It means so much to me.

[DC47]

I still enjoy Fogelberg's first few albums, as well as the hit songs about his father and long-lost love.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYIWeow6W14
Yes. Leader of the band. Dan, in concert one time, said that if he could have only written one song, this would be it. Did I mention that the final verse to this song was read at my father's funeral? It means so much to me.

There are many tribute songs for fathers. But I can't think of one that's so loving and real. You are so fortunate to be the son of a father that resembled the one in this song. I imagine that the reading at his funeral touched many people.

When I hear that song, I recognize the greatness of both the art and the father-son relationship. But I also am struck by wistfulness and a sense of loss.

I was not so lucky in the father-son sweepstakes, as unemployment and alcohol basically took my dad away from me around age 13, not to return until we surprisingly reconciled -- without ever discussing our problems -- three decades later. Against fairly steep odds (e.g., he assaulted me with weapons a few times, the letter to Business Week attacking my consulting practice), we had a tremendous final decade, with daily hour-long phone calls.

At my father's funeral I read his favorite (perhaps only) poem, John Masefield's Sea Fever.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/242552

At his burial, I considered tossing a bottle of vodka and a pack of Winstons in the grave. That would have actually been a loving tribute to his hard times, which he at least partially overcame late in life. But I refrained, as family members might have mis-interpreted the sentiment, given our troubled decades.

[MaxWebster]

Leader of the Band is a great f'n song - full stop.

[DaveInSeattle]

My neighbors, my GF, and now myself are completely sick of hearing "For What's Its Worth" by Buffalo Springfield, now that it has become the first song I'm learning on the guitar...