Random Politics

Square Rob · Post by **Square Rob** » Wed May 24, 2017 9:42 pm

brian wrote:I would seldom say this about a mayoral address, but this address by New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu after the removal of the four Confederate monuments there is a must-read.

Shit, Brian, I didn't see that you had linked to this previously. Sorry!

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Wed May 24, 2017 10:06 pm

All could have been avoided if the reporter brought a gun.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Wed May 24, 2017 10:57 pm

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Thu May 25, 2017 8:21 am

Pruitt wrote:
Joe K wrote:So, the GOP candidate in the Montana special election just physically assaulted a journalist. Police are investigating so the dude might get arrested. Looks like the Dems will pick up at least one seat.
Same Reporter Exposed His Investments in Russian Companies

I have a fresh John A. MacDonald ($10 Canadian) that says this guy still wins.

The candidate was charged with misdemeanor assault. I'd imagine the charges would be much more severe if the tables were turned and a reporter or activist did something like this at a public campaign event.

But you're probably right that he'll still win. He had a pretty sizable fundraising edge coming in and I also think that he'll benefit from what I think is a fundamental difference in how American liberals and conservatives view politics. For the most part, liberals view politics as a civil exchange where if you have good ideas and follow the right norms (i.e., show respect for institutions), you should win. Body slamming and punching a reporter is obviously inconsistent with these norms.

The problem with this view is that conservatives have long viewed politics very differently. For them, politics is an ideological battle for the soul of this country, with (real or perceived) liberals as the mortal enemy. Unlike liberals, who view willingness to compromise as a virtue (sometimes to a fault), these conservatives view any attempt at compromise as a betrayal, because liberals are that much of an enemy. (Hank Williams, Jr.'s drunken interview that got him kicked off MNF, where he compared John Boehner golfing with Obama to Chamberlain appeasing Hitler, is an example of this mindset.) On the other hand, aggression and disrespect is a virtue, as long as its directed at the right adversaries. Trump's utter disrespect for political norms is a positive for these voters, because it shows that he shares their hatred of Democrats, the media, etc. Similarly, I saw some a reaction to the Montana candidate's assault where, when told that he physically assaulted a reporter, one of his supporters said something like, "this just proves that he's my kind of politician!"

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Thu May 25, 2017 9:08 am

Joe K wrote: The problem with this view is that conservatives have long viewed politics very differently. For them, politics is an ideological battle for the soul of this country, with (real or perceived) liberals as the mortal enemy. Unlike liberals, who view willingness to compromise as a virtue (sometimes to a fault), these conservatives view any attempt at compromise as a betrayal, because liberals are that much of an enemy. (Hank Williams, Jr.'s drunken interview that got him kicked off MNF, where he compared John Boehner golfing with Obama to Chamberlain appeasing Hitler, is an example of this mindset.) On the other hand, aggression and disrespect is a virtue, as long as its directed at the right adversaries. Trump's utter disrespect for political norms is a positive for these voters, because it shows that he shares their hatred of Democrats, the media, etc. Similarly, I saw some a reaction to the Montana candidate's assault where, when told that he physically assaulted a reporter, one of his supporters said something like, "this just proves that he's my kind of politician!"

It's probably just arguing semantics, but what we're seeing has almost no relation to "conservatism" as it used to exist.

This is reactionary, violent, paranoid, stridently nationalistic and angry with a strong current of racism, misogyny and other "isms." It is fascism by another name.

To lump this group of goons in with people like Reagan, Buckley and perhaps Eisenhower (?) is an insult to the intelligence and patriotism of those men.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Thu May 25, 2017 9:33 am

Well, I will absolve Ike, but Reagan and Buckley were part of the movement that formented and cultivated what the base of the Republicans has become. Their legacy owns this.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Thu May 25, 2017 11:29 am

Joe K wrote: The candidate was charged with misdemeanor assault. I'd imagine the charges would be much more severe if the tables were turned and a reporter or activist did something like this at a public campaign event.

But you're probably right that he'll still win. He had a pretty sizable fundraising edge coming in and I also think that he'll benefit from what I think is a fundamental difference in how American liberals and conservatives view politics. For the most part, liberals view politics as a civil exchange where if you have good ideas and follow the right norms (i.e., show respect for institutions), you should win. Body slamming and punching a reporter is obviously inconsistent with these norms.

The problem with this view is that conservatives have long viewed politics very differently. For them, politics is an ideological battle for the soul of this country, with (real or perceived) liberals as the mortal enemy. Unlike liberals, who view willingness to compromise as a virtue (sometimes to a fault), these conservatives view any attempt at compromise as a betrayal, because liberals are that much of an enemy. (Hank Williams, Jr.'s drunken interview that got him kicked off MNF, where he compared John Boehner golfing with Obama to Chamberlain appeasing Hitler, is an example of this mindset.) On the other hand, aggression and disrespect is a virtue, as long as its directed at the right adversaries. Trump's utter disrespect for political norms is a positive for these voters, because it shows that he shares their hatred of Democrats, the media, etc. Similarly, I saw some a reaction to the Montana candidate's assault where, when told that he physically assaulted a reporter, one of his supporters said something like, "this just proves that he's my kind of politician!"

Apparently Montanans predominantly vote by early mail-ins, so they project close to 2/3 of votes were likely already cast, and Sluggo was expected to win, so there is a decent chance this doesn't affect the outcome. Long-term, it's probably better if he wins to keep the Dems based fired up and never assume a Dem candidate will win. It would make a nice reminder in close races Dems feel they have won, "just remember that Congressman who was criminally charged for assaulting a reporter the day before an election, and still won!"

The candidate's press release blamed the incident on a mean Liberal reporter, specifically labelling him as Liberal. Fun times we live in.

Post by **brian** » Thu May 25, 2017 11:32 am

Square Rob wrote:
brian wrote:I would seldom say this about a mayoral address, but this address by New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu after the removal of the four Confederate monuments there is a must-read.
Shit, Brian, I didn't see that you had linked to this previously. Sorry!

It's nice to have you back so we gave the DTP the night off.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu May 25, 2017 11:53 am

brian wrote:I would seldom say this about a mayoral address, but this address by New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu after the removal of the four Confederate monuments there is a must-read.

Finally got a chance to read it. Seems like a perfect response to all the "you really need to hear and try to understand the other side" blanket-application nonsense. Yes, there are times where you do exactly that. And there are other times, when the motives are obvious, that you ignore and overrule them. Good on New Orleans and Mayor Landrieu.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Thu May 25, 2017 12:16 pm

tennbengal wrote:Well, I will absolve Ike, but Reagan and Buckley were part of the movement that formented and cultivated what the base of the Republicans has become. Their legacy owns this.

Yup.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Thu May 25, 2017 8:50 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
tennbengal wrote:Well, I will absolve Ike, but Reagan and Buckley were part of the movement that formented and cultivated what the base of the Republicans has become. Their legacy owns this.
Yup.

Along these lines, one of the lefties I follow on Twitter just posted a link to a New York Times article from several years back that noted how Reagan called Nixon in the midst of the Watergate scandal to lend his support. According to the White House's notes, Reagan referred to the Saturday Night Massacre "probably the best thing that ever happened." So I would tend to agree that you have to go back at least to Eisenhower to find a good Republican president.

L-Jam3 · Post by **L-Jam3** » Thu May 25, 2017 9:15 pm

And for what it's worth, Eisenhower only became politically affiliated with a party about a year before his first election.

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Fri May 26, 2017 7:50 am

You know old Ronnie Reagan
He was a shoe salesman's son
He got himself in the movies
He impressed everyone
He thought trial by fire
Was America's fate
He made a joke of the poor people
And that made him a saint

But he was tan enough, he was rich enough
He was handsome like John Wayne
And there was no one at the country club
Who didn't feel the same

Fuck Ronald Reagan.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Fri May 26, 2017 8:35 am

Giff wrote:
Fuck Ronald Reagan.

Oh I agree. I wrote my comment in anger and couldn't think of a conservative politician who fit my thesis. The name Rockefeller came to mind, but that seemed kind of silly.

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Fri May 26, 2017 10:19 am

The party of Abe, T.R., and Ike is now the party of Pussy-Grabbing and Body-Slamming.

Where's the scotch?

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Fri May 26, 2017 10:30 am

DaveInSeattle wrote:The party of Abe, T.R., and Ike is now the party of Pussy-Grabbing and Body-Slamming.

Where's the scotch?

No more scotch.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Fri May 26, 2017 10:44 am

Body-slamming guy won by the way. Not clear that getting charged with assault had any negative effect on his share of the vote. For all the Trump nonsense, I still think the Democratic Party is in really bad shape nationwide. There's this assumption they'll dominate the midterms but the same people saying that were convinced that nominating Trump would lead to a down-ballot disaster for the GOP in 2016. Picking Tom Perez over Keith Ellison as DNC Chair was a really bad decision as it was basically an endorsement of the status quo, which has been losing nonstop since 2008.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Fri May 26, 2017 11:36 am

Joe K wrote:Body-slamming guy won by the way. Not clear that getting charged with assault had any negative effect on his share of the vote. For all the Trump nonsense, I still think the Democratic Party is in really bad shape nationwide. There's this assumption they'll dominate the midterms but the same people saying that were convinced that nominating Trump would lead to a down-ballot disaster for the GOP in 2016. Picking Tom Perez over Keith Ellison as DNC Chair was a really bad decision as it was basically an endorsement of the status quo, which has been losing nonstop since 2008.

I think the election was decided by mail-ins before the body slam occurred.

And, Rockefeller was liberal by Republican standards.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Sat May 27, 2017 12:11 pm

Pruitt wrote:Labour party in the UK has just committed political suicide.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/world ... orbyn.html

Jeremy Corbyn is a classic British hard-lefty who wants to nationalize everything in sight. Which is not without its attractions, but these battles were lost decades ago. The perhaps inevitable result of opening the nomination process to anyone with three pounds to spend and a computer - I mean, this guy basically was a place holder for the hard left who had to be convinced to put his name up for nomination.

Labour is a party that (depending on your POV) either "Sold its soul" to get power and eep it under Blair and Brown, or "adapted" to the times by turning its back on the radicals and the hard core trade unions who ran the party in the past.

Read the Guardian for a more sympathetic portrayal, read the tabloids for more shrill coverage, one thing is certain - the Liberal Democrats now have a chance to seize the centre-left position that Labour has now run away from.

So, about that suicide:

Theresa May’s poll lead has fallen to five points a fortnight before the general election — the smallest margin over Labour since she came to power.

A YouGov poll for The Times puts Labour on 38 per cent of the vote, up three points since the end of last week and the party’s best performance since Jeremy Corbyn became leader in September 2015.

The Conservatives are down one point to 43 per cent, the Liberal Democrats up one point to 10 per cent and Ukip up one to 4 per cent.

If the swing is replicated in every constituency Mrs May would lose seats and the Conservatives would have an overall majority of two, down from 17.

It's almost as if left-wing populism has far more appeal to actual voters than it does to the corporate-owned media. There's a lesson in this for the DNC and the Democratic Party, which they surely will not learn.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Sat May 27, 2017 3:06 pm

I will temper my original statement somewhat, based upon the fact that Theresa May is driving voters away big time.

But I can not see this election ending in anything other than a Conservative majority.

Post by **brian** » Sat May 27, 2017 5:15 pm

Wait so the British election is over then. Well if the polls say so. Just like how Hillary won in the US I guess

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Sat May 27, 2017 5:54 pm

brian wrote:Wait so the British election is over then. Well if the polls say so. Just like how Hillary won in the US I guess

I found a fascinating site http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html which I was going to use to back up my beliefs...

But then I remembered how wildly inaccurate British polling has been.

Still, a cool site to spend a few minutes investigating.

Post by **brian** » Sat May 27, 2017 6:54 pm

Pruitt wrote:
brian wrote:Wait so the British election is over then. Well if the polls say so. Just like how Hillary won in the US I guess
I found a fascinating site http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html which I was going to use to back up my beliefs...

But then I remembered how wildly inaccurate British polling has been.

Still, a cool site to spend a few minutes investigating.

I was referring more to lessons that need to be learned in the US. Where polling data is never inaccurate.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Sat May 27, 2017 7:07 pm

On the polls in the UK have been wildly inaccurate.

As in Canada.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Sun May 28, 2017 9:42 am

Pruitt wrote:I will temper my original statement somewhat, based upon the fact that Theresa May is driving voters away big time.

But I can not see this election ending in anything other than a Conservative majority.

I agree that it is still very likely that the British election will end with a Conservative majority. But I think it's already evident that the anti-Corbyn hysteria has proven false in that he certainly hasn't killed the Labour party or driven it into oblivion. Although different polls vary in how close the upcoming election will be, I think there's a clear consensus that Labour is more popular now than it was when he assumed his leadership role. And my post about this recent polling wasn't meant to be a critique of your prediction as much as a criticism of the conventional wisdom which always claims that it's a mistake for "liberal" parties to actually move left. The venom against Corbyn has been particularly extreme because he is not only a leftist on economic issues but also may be the sharpest critic of Western imperialism of any politician in the US or UK. (As much as I like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, neither one has ever offered much in terms of foreign policy insights.) No matter how many disastrous wars or interventions the US and UK participate in, the hawks are always treated as the "reasonable" voices on foreign policy, while critics of imperialism are derided as naive at best and, at worst, traitorous. Obama got a dose of this when he ran in 2008 -- for some reason, Clinton and McCain were treated as the "safe" foreign policy thinkers, despite supporting the worst foreign policy decision in decades -- but nothing like what Corbyn has gotten from the British press.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Sun May 28, 2017 10:49 am

Corbyn is clearly unloved by the electorate, but he is simply loathed by most of the media.

This should be the tim that the Liberal Democrats soar in the polls - but the deal they made with the Tories and Cameron for the illusion of power-sharing in 2010 may have killed the party.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:06 pm

Johnny Carwash · Post by **Johnny Carwash** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Is that a roundabout way of saying it's going to be Hillary again?

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:25 pm

Johnny Carwash wrote:Is that a roundabout way of saying it's going to be Hillary again?

I looked at that guy BEO Speedwulf's Twitter timeline and he posted that picture to mock it. He later made clear that he thinks Hillary ran an awful campaign and that simply running as "not Trump" was (and will be in 2020) a terrible strategy. The point of his caption about "centrists" was to express the view that they haven't learned any lessons from Hillary's mistakes and still seem to think that an uninspiring Democrat can win.

Post by **Shirley** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:25 pm

Johnny Carwash wrote:Is that a roundabout way of saying it's going to be Hillary again?

I just threw up in my mouth a bit.

EnochRoot · Post by **EnochRoot** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:46 pm

You'd see a legitimate 3rd party rise from the ashes of the Democrat Party if they dragged her out again.

Post by **brian** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:53 pm

A more legitimate party loyalist who might actually run (and win the nomination) is Joe Biden. I love Uncle Joe and I'd vote for a an actual garbage can before Trump obviously but Biden will not make a lot of people happy.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:45 pm

The party needs to have more people that appeal to voters the way Bernie did. How hard is that to realize?

Oh, and they need their 3 million surplus of voters to move to rural areas. Lotsa hipsters in the Democratic party. Time for them to live up to their "too cool" personalities and rough it for a bit. Ya know, for the country.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:03 pm

The snowflakes upset about the political nature of Roger Water's current tour is pretty damn hilarious. Seems none of them have ever listened to a Roger Waters/Pink Floyd song before.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:10 pm

Johnnie wrote:Lotsa hipsters in the Democratic party. Time for them to live up to their "too cool" personalities and rough it for a bit. Ya know, for the country.

I'm doing my part! (sorta)

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:30 pm

Rush2112 wrote:The snowflakes upset about the political nature of Roger Water's current tour is pretty damn hilarious. Seems none of them have ever listened to a Roger Waters/Pink Floyd song before.

I assume the right wing crazies thought The Wall was a how to...

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:33 pm

tennbengal wrote:
Rush2112 wrote:The snowflakes upset about the political nature of Roger Water's current tour is pretty damn hilarious. Seems none of them have ever listened to a Roger Waters/Pink Floyd song before.
I assume the right wing crazies thought The Wall was a how to...

insert Betsy devos "we don't need to education" joke here.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:42 pm

Rush2112 wrote:The snowflakes upset about the political nature of Roger Water's current tour is pretty damn hilarious. Seems none of them have ever listened to a Roger Waters/Pink Floyd song before.

Did you go?

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:51 pm

P.D.X. wrote:
Rush2112 wrote:The snowflakes upset about the political nature of Roger Water's current tour is pretty damn hilarious. Seems none of them have ever listened to a Roger Waters/Pink Floyd song before.
Did you go?

Sadly no, spent my concert $ on Dead & Co.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:15 pm

Don't fuck with Angus King. He makes this admiral look like a bitch.

What are they hiding in their refusal to answer questions, btw?

https://youtu.be/XBZ1hlSoUIc