US v. Belgium - Let's do this

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:23 am

Have I missed this thread? If so, I couldn't find it.

If not, this is a crackin' read on possible tactics and match-ups for the game:

http://theshinguardian.com/2014/06/29/t ... th-hazard/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:52 am

In looking for another thread, I read the thread from the Belgium friendly last year. I don't remember watching any of the game, but apparently I watched the second half. Disconcerting.

Watching the Germany game, I was a nervous wreck. More so for the Ghana/Portugal result. If we didn't move on, I would have been crushed, and torturing myself for 4 years replaying the tying goal. Now, if we lose to Belgium, as long as we play well and still deserve to lose, I will be content with the showing. Kind of makes no sense that I would be crushed not to advance, yet content to lose the next game. It is the opposite of how I watch most games. Usually I am crushed by a loss and relieved we didn't lose when we win. Now, I will be fired up for a win, probably pacing around the living room the whole game, but OK if we lose fairly. If we lose on a BS PK or something, I'll be pissed.

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:02 am

Has the US ever lost a meaningful game/tournament in PKs (or equivalent in another sport?). I think going out in PKs would be a bad result for my ears. I don't want to hear the talking heads go on about PKs after a heart tearing out result like that. Other nations have learned to wallow in a PK loss. I don't think the US is mature enough as a soccer nation to be ready for that. We will have to learn at some point...but hopefully not this year.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:05 am

wlu_lax6 wrote:Has the US ever lost a meaningful game/tournament in PKs (or equivalent in another sport?). I think going out in PKs would be a bad result for my ears. I don't want to hear the talking heads go on about PKs after a heart tearing out result like that. Other nations have learned to wallow in a PK loss. I don't think the US is mature enough as a soccer nation to be ready for that. We will have to learn at some point...but hopefully not this year.

The only time I can recall the US going to PKs is the 2005 Gold Cup final against Panama, and we won that. USA! USA!

SportsDoc · Post by **SportsDoc** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:14 am

Off subject a bit, but is there any chance FIFA would get rid of PK to decide ties?

Awful way to decide a Championship, to me.

Post by **brian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:26 am

SportsDoc wrote:Off subject a bit, but is there any chance FIFA would get rid of PK to decide ties?

Awful way to decide a Championship, to me.

No chance. But if there was a better option, I'm sure they'd consider it. But no one has ever come up with one.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:32 am

That's what gets me about the PK complaining. It was clear at the end of the PK games that each team was running on fumes as it was. Is the thought to make them play until players collapse and a goal happens?

Johnny Carwash · Post by **Johnny Carwash** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:43 am

A couple of times I've heard people float the idea of playing extra time with progressively fewer players on each side, the idea being that this will increase the odds of an eventual goal. Who knows, though.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:49 am

I don't understand the progressively fewer at all. I do think that with expanded benches at the World Cup compared to most competitions that they could relax the substitution rules after 90 minutes, and that would address the fatigue problem.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:51 am

I'd do a combination of penalties, corners, and free kicks from some other spot on the field. But I'm new.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:01 am

There's no way cumulative shots on goal in OT (to encourage offensive play) would be better than a shootout, right?

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:11 am

The US lost to Colombia in the 2000 Gold Cup Quarters on penalties which opened the door for Canada to take the title.

I think there are problems with playing more overtime due to worldwide tv. There could be more subs and another 30 minutes but all the players are so tired.

SportsDoc · Post by **SportsDoc** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:28 am

brian wrote:
SportsDoc wrote:Off subject a bit, but is there any chance FIFA would get rid of PK to decide ties?

Awful way to decide a Championship, to me.
No chance. But if there was a better option, I'm sure they'd consider it. But no one has ever come up with one.

What if they used Free Kicks, but moved them back. They seem way too close. Seems more luck than skill for goal tender from this close. Has that ever been discussed?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:29 am

There is a definite skill in taking PKs.

Post by **brian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:35 am

AB_skin_test wrote:There is a definite skill in taking PKs.

Especially after having run 10 miles or so over the previous 120 minutes.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:51 am

AB_skin_test wrote:There is a definite skill in taking PKs.

Don't tell the English that. They still think it's a lottery.

English commentators have really annoyed me this WC. I wish I had ESPN. Never thought I'd say that.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:07 pm

degenerasian wrote:
AB_skin_test wrote:There is a definite skill in taking PKs.
Don't tell the English that. They still think it's a lottery.

English commentators have really annoyed me this WC. I wish I had ESPN. Never thought I'd say that.

Most of the ESPN announcers are English. We have Taylor Twellman commenting on the US games, and I think he does a good job. We have a Fernando Palomo and Alejandro Moreno doing Mexico games. Palomo his horrendous.

In the early MLS years, they thought Americans wouldn't like tie games, so they had a shootout similar to the NHL. The players would dribble up from a distance and face the goalie one-on-one with a shotclock. It was terrible and didn't last long. FIFA used the "golden goal" concept for a while, where the fist goal won. They thought it would avoid PKs by taking out the possibility of both teams scoring in extra time. It didn't work well, as teams played more conservatively trying to prevent giving up a goal.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:00 pm

The Sybian wrote:
degenerasian wrote:
AB_skin_test wrote:There is a definite skill in taking PKs.
Don't tell the English that. They still think it's a lottery.

English commentators have really annoyed me this WC. I wish I had ESPN. Never thought I'd say that.

Most of the ESPN announcers are English. We have Taylor Twellman commenting on the US games, and I think he does a good job. We have a Fernando Palomo and Alejandro Moreno doing Mexico games. Palomo his horrendous.

Maybe you've taken all the good English announcers or knocked the snobbery out of them. The English in general look down on smaller teams. Yesterday the guy who did the Costa Rica-Greece game didn't want to be there. He whined on and on about how these two teams didn't deserve to be here and by the 25th minute said this game was destined to end 0-0 and go to penalties cause these teams are crap.

I don't appreciate commentators denouncing games as snoozers. If I'm watching a game, there really isn't any situation where I want the commentators to complain about that game. For me the commentators job is partly to try and find something interesting about games even when there's not much there. Let me decide for myself if I'm bored or not.

Complaining about tactics is fair game though. But that's still different from complaining about the game or the teams.

"The Lottery of penalties"
"The Mexican Wave"

How many times have people fucking told you it's not the Mexican wave.

The English never change.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:55 pm

The Sybian wrote:In looking for another thread, I read the thread from the Belgium friendly last year. I don't remember watching any of the game, but apparently I watched the second half. Disconcerting.

Watching the Germany game, I was a nervous wreck. More so for the Ghana/Portugal result. If we didn't move on, I would have been crushed, and torturing myself for 4 years replaying the tying goal. Now, if we lose to Belgium, as long as we play well and still deserve to lose, I will be content with the showing. Kind of makes no sense that I would be crushed not to advance, yet content to lose the next game. It is the opposite of how I watch most games. Usually I am crushed by a loss and relieved we didn't lose when we win. Now, I will be fired up for a win, probably pacing around the living room the whole game, but OK if we lose fairly. If we lose on a BS PK or something, I'll be pissed.

I think your response and overall position is where the vast majority of US fans have landed. The last game of the group was absolute torture. I took no joy from that experience, just massive relief.

Going into this game, against yet another team favored to go deep... Of course I want a win, and I do have a good feeling going in... But I'm certainly not going to be gutted by a loss (unless it's a repeat of the Germany game from 02).

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:58 pm

tennbengal wrote:That's what gets me about the PK complaining. It was clear at the end of the PK games that each team was running on fumes as it was. Is the thought to make them play until players collapse and a goal happens?

Anyone that sat through the monstrosity of the American v. UCLA college final in the late 80s is just fine with PKs. There's a point in this sport (and hockey, for that matter) when the players are barely able to function and the winner isn't determined by the better team, really, it's determined by some random sub or 4th line guy because everyone else has run or skated 4 or 5 times what is usually required.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:03 pm

Hockey OT isn't especially fair--it's just extremely entertaining. I think that's the bigger gripe, that games tend to fall off after the 90 minutes are up. The solution to that is to get rid of extra time, though.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:06 pm

And the other thing... PKs are fucking awesome. I mean, they absolutely suck if you have truly vested interest, but beyond that... Is there anything in sports more thrilling than that? Hockey shootouts (which... awesome) are pretty damn cool, too.

It's part of the sport, there's no other viable solution... Just embrace it.

(As a goalie... I LOVED PKs. I fully bought into the notion that the pressure is on the kicker, so I just had fun with it. The other thing is even at the college level, guys get in that situation and they tighten up so much, you can read the shot a lot of times by the type of player they were during the game. That doesn't work at the Pro level, where it'd be a nightmare.)

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:43 pm

Rex wrote:Hockey OT isn't especially fair--it's just extremely entertaining. I think that's the bigger gripe, that games tend to fall off after the 90 minutes are up. The solution to that is to get rid of extra time, though.

At least in hockey they can change lines and have intermissions. But yeah by the 2nd overtime it's slow and the ice is bad.

In the Copa America they don't play extra time, they go straight to penalties.

testuser2 · Post by **testuser2** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:15 pm

The overtime rules for wrestling are continually being tweaked. Every level right now has a different set(HS, NCAA, FILA). I'm not sure they will ever find ones that consistently find the real winner.

Maybe they can move to a game of soccer horse? I'd love to see a game end with Messi calling a bicycle shot off two posts.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:31 pm

Haimoudi the algerian ref tomorrow. He's horrible so you've been warned

Bensell · Post by **Bensell** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:08 am

Rex wrote:I don't understand the progressively fewer at all. I do think that with expanded benches at the World Cup compared to most competitions that they could relax the substitution rules after 90 minutes, and that would address the fatigue problem.

This is what I was arguing for the other day, but I really don't have a better idea than the shootout so I guess I should stop bitching about it.

The wait til 4 PM is going to seem like days...

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:08 am

On this day, let us recall the most evil Belgian of them all:

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A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:11 am

I got no problem with belgium but today I want them all to suffer.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:23 am

So where is the swamp collective on Jozy? Personally I think it's a big risk to try to start him. I'd rather him come on late late late if we need an equalizer and risk the substitute for a substitute. But I am not his hammy nor am i on his medical team.

Bensell · Post by **Bensell** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:39 am

AB_skin_test wrote:So where is the swamp collective on Jozy? Personally I think it's a big risk to try to start him. I'd rather him come on late late late if we need an equalizer and risk the substitute for a substitute. But I am not his hammy nor am i on his medical team.

I'm leaning towards the midpoint of the second half but whatever is decided (starting 2nd half sub) needs to be told to the team way early today.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:44 am

2-1 US. Either we go up 2-0, give up a goal around the hour mark and hold on, OR we snag the winner late, I believe that we will win. Bradley gets the first goal, and if it's a late go ahead goal, Sub Jozy gets the second.

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:45 am

so what if you bring in Jozy in the 2nd half and his hammy is just not right or it tweaks again. then you have to go to 30 minutes of extra time and Pks with a guy with a bad wheel. If you want to change the game you have to bring in pure speed when people are getting tired. Someone who can pressure exhausted fullbacks and race into spaces vacated by guys who went forward but are too tired to get back.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:46 am

Jozy definitely can't be your third substitute.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:33 am

Jozy in only if we're losing late. I'm pretty great at strategy.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:34 am

I think you can only use Jozy if he is near 100%, and only as a sub. Hamstrings are way too susceptible to reinjuring. He has only had a little over 2 weeks, right? Unless it was a minor strain, he can't be fit. The way he went down sure didn't look minor. Strains, the player usually pulls up and walks off the field. Jozy went down and stayed down. But WTF do I know. I haven't seen the MRI or seen him train. He is back to training really early. In one sense, there could be no tomorrow, so why save him, but I fall in line with playing it conservatively and not wasting a sub and risk playing a man down if he gets hurt again late. OTOH, Jurgen hasn't been using subs early, or even using all of them IIRC. Against Germany, he waited too long to bring on Yedlin. I think Yedlin could have caused a lot of problems for the slow German backline, but Jurgen wasn't even playing for the tie at the end, he was clearly playing for a close loss to get through.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:45 am

STOP SAYING HIS NAME I HAVE THE OUTFIELD SONG STUCK IN MY HEAD

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:49 am

No idea how I am going to watch this game. Working from home, but I have to leave at 5:00ish to get the girl. May have to finish the game after the kids go to bed. That is going to be torture.

rass · Post by **rass** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:49 am

Ryan wrote:STOP SAYING HIS NAME I HAVE THE OUTFIELD SONG STUCK IN MY HEAD

My head has been going Steely Dan.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:55 am

I'm picking up at 3:45 today, Syb.

rass · Post by **rass** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:05 am

The Sybian wrote:No idea how I am going to watch this game. Working from home, but I have to leave at 5:00ish to get the girl. May have to finish the game after the kids go to bed. That is going to be torture.

Yuck.

The kids are supposed to be in a day camp this week. ESPN finally started playing the games on local radio this week (SEE YA! Kay), so I figured I would leave work at 4, catch most of the first half in the car and get home for the second half. Then the oldest begged me to record the game so she could watch the whole thing, and I decided to sacrifice myself for her continued soccer fandom, and go with a media blackout until we got home and start watching at that point, an hour or so behind. Then the oldest woke up with a bad cold this morning, and skipped camp, so now I need to check in with her at some point to see if I can listen on the way home or if she is going to wait until I get home to watch.