Just to be clear, if that is how this was structured, I'd be fine with it. It's not. The bonuses for advancing are now being placed in a pool and then being doled out to all players who have played a certain amount of minutes for either team. And, again, the payout from FIFA is ENORMOUSLY more for the men than the women. I won't go over stuff Syb and I have already stated about why this is the case.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:21 pmthe easiest answer to all of this is to tie competition revenue into bonus structures while keeping the base pay -- the wage -- the same. seems pretty straightforward. there's no justifiable reason to tell a woman (or man) that their work to make an international team is worth less at a base rate than it is for the other gender.The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:17 pmEven in the rest of the world where the Men's teams sell out huge stadiums and sell tons of merch and the Women's teams get 500 fans to show up if they are lucky? Outside of the US and in very recent years a handful of European countries, there was zero interest in Women's international soccer. To some extent, there should be a correlation to revenue generation. And I hope you wouldn't argue that FIFA should pay the winning teams the same amount for the Women's WC winner as the Men's.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:46 pm it feels common sense that all national team members of a specific country should make the same per-sport wage from the country they're representing. I don't understand how that's controversial at all.
Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Moderators: Shirley, Sabo, brian, rass, DaveInSeattle
- Nonlinear FC
- The Dude
- Posts: 11068
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
- The Sybian
- The Dude
- Posts: 19105
- Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
- Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
It's kind of like telling an NFL player they should get paid the same as an XFL player. They are both going on a field and playing the same sport. Why should one get paid more than the other? It's not just paying one gender more than the other. Men's soccer generates 100s of Billions of dollars worldwide while Women's soccer generates 10s of millions.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:21 pmthe easiest answer to all of this is to tie competition revenue into bonus structures while keeping the base pay -- the wage -- the same. seems pretty straightforward. there's no justifiable reason to tell a woman (or man) that their work to make an international team is worth less at a base rate than it is for the other gender.The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:17 pmEven in the rest of the world where the Men's teams sell out huge stadiums and sell tons of merch and the Women's teams get 500 fans to show up if they are lucky? Outside of the US and in very recent years a handful of European countries, there was zero interest in Women's international soccer. To some extent, there should be a correlation to revenue generation. And I hope you wouldn't argue that FIFA should pay the winning teams the same amount for the Women's WC winner as the Men's.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:46 pm it feels common sense that all national team members of a specific country should make the same per-sport wage from the country they're representing. I don't understand how that's controversial at all.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
-Pruitt
- Brontoburglar
- The Dude
- Posts: 5881
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 am
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
huh?The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:06 pmBrontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:21 pmthe easiest answer to all of this is to tie competition revenue into bonus structures while keeping the base pay -- the wage -- the same. seems pretty straightforward. there's no justifiable reason to tell a woman (or man) that their work to make an international team is worth less at a base rate than it is for the other gender.The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:17 pmEven in the rest of the world where the Men's teams sell out huge stadiums and sell tons of merch and the Women's teams get 500 fans to show up if they are lucky? Outside of the US and in very recent years a handful of European countries, there was zero interest in Women's international soccer. To some extent, there should be a correlation to revenue generation. And I hope you wouldn't argue that FIFA should pay the winning teams the same amount for the Women's WC winner as the Men's.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:46 pm it feels common sense that all national team members of a specific country should make the same per-sport wage from the country they're representing. I don't understand how that's controversial at all.
It's kind of like telling an NFL player they should get paid the same as an XFL player. They are both going on a field and playing the same sport. Why should one get paid more than the other? It's not just paying one gender more than the other. Men's soccer generates 100s of Billions of dollars worldwide while Women's soccer generates 10s of millions.
"We're not the smartest people in the world. We go down the straightaway and turn left. That's literally what we do." -- Clint Bowyer
- Brontoburglar
- The Dude
- Posts: 5881
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 am
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
I think this is getting too in the weeds vs. a broad sense of the equal pay theme. And I think we all can agree that the US is a unique example because of the success of the women relative to the men and of the way the NWSL has been set up and structured with direct USWNT involvement along with the recognizability and marketability of the players.Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:49 pm Just to be clear, if that is how this was structured, I'd be fine with it. It's not. The bonuses for advancing are now being placed in a pool and then being doled out to all players who have played a certain amount of minutes for either team. And, again, the payout from FIFA is ENORMOUSLY more for the men than the women. I won't go over stuff Syb and I have already stated about why this is the case.
"We're not the smartest people in the world. We go down the straightaway and turn left. That's literally what we do." -- Clint Bowyer
- The Sybian
- The Dude
- Posts: 19105
- Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
- Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
NFL compared to XFL and Men's soccer compared to Women's are both the same sport played at vastly different levels and generating vastly different amount of revenues. It's a business, employees get paid more when they generate more revenue. It's not complicated. If you think the Women's WC and the Men's WC are equivalent, you are delusional.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:08 pmhuh?The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:06 pmBrontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:21 pmthe easiest answer to all of this is to tie competition revenue into bonus structures while keeping the base pay -- the wage -- the same. seems pretty straightforward. there's no justifiable reason to tell a woman (or man) that their work to make an international team is worth less at a base rate than it is for the other gender.The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:17 pmEven in the rest of the world where the Men's teams sell out huge stadiums and sell tons of merch and the Women's teams get 500 fans to show up if they are lucky? Outside of the US and in very recent years a handful of European countries, there was zero interest in Women's international soccer. To some extent, there should be a correlation to revenue generation. And I hope you wouldn't argue that FIFA should pay the winning teams the same amount for the Women's WC winner as the Men's.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:46 pm it feels common sense that all national team members of a specific country should make the same per-sport wage from the country they're representing. I don't understand how that's controversial at all.
It's kind of like telling an NFL player they should get paid the same as an XFL player. They are both going on a field and playing the same sport. Why should one get paid more than the other? It's not just paying one gender more than the other. Men's soccer generates 100s of Billions of dollars worldwide while Women's soccer generates 10s of millions.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
-Pruitt
- Brontoburglar
- The Dude
- Posts: 5881
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 am
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
I'm extremely confused. why would it be unfair to have all national team members make the same base pay and have a formula for bonuses based on the competition revenues of that sport like mentioned above?The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:16 pm
NFL compared to XFL and Men's soccer compared to Women's are both the same sport played at vastly different levels and generating vastly different amount of revenues. It's a business, employees get paid more when they generate more revenue. It's not complicated. If you think the Women's WC and the Men's WC are equivalent, you are delusional.
ETA: I also feel it needs to be clearer that I'm speaking about the general principle way more broadly than simply about more than soccer in the United States
"We're not the smartest people in the world. We go down the straightaway and turn left. That's literally what we do." -- Clint Bowyer
- The Sybian
- The Dude
- Posts: 19105
- Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
- Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
If the base pay was a small compared to the bonus for WCs, sure. As it is, they don't get paid shit for friendlies and in US only calculations, the gap in revenue is much smaller, so sure, pay them the same for friendlies. I was just talking WC revenue sharing.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:19 pmI'm extremely confused. why would it be unfair to have all national team members make the same base pay and have a formula for bonuses based on the competition revenues of that sport like mentioned above?The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:16 pm
NFL compared to XFL and Men's soccer compared to Women's are both the same sport played at vastly different levels and generating vastly different amount of revenues. It's a business, employees get paid more when they generate more revenue. It's not complicated. If you think the Women's WC and the Men's WC are equivalent, you are delusional.
ETA: I also feel it needs to be clearer that I'm speaking about the general principle way more broadly than simply about more than soccer in the United States
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
-Pruitt
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
XFL players are explicitly not at the top of their sport. That’s like the exact opposite of this discussion.
- The Sybian
- The Dude
- Posts: 19105
- Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
- Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Alright, pro pickleball league?
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
-Pruitt
- The Sybian
- The Dude
- Posts: 19105
- Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
- Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Maybe the issue is that I view Women's and Men's soccer as analogous to separate leagues or sports, not like identically skilled players in the same league generating the same revenues paid differently due to a protected class. This is very different than if the NFL had different league minimums based on a player's race. How much do the U-20s get paid for international matches? I'm assuming it's lower than the full nationals. Is that age discrimination?
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
-Pruitt
- A_B
- The Dude
- Posts: 23585
- Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
- Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Depends on how big of an asshole his parents are.
Hold on, I'm trying to see if Jack London ever gets this fire built or not.
- The Sybian
- The Dude
- Posts: 19105
- Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
- Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Serious question, is there any rule preventing a woman from playing on a men's national team?
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
-Pruitt
- Nonlinear FC
- The Dude
- Posts: 11068
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Well, it's not getting in the weeds in terms of where the discussion took us. Soccer is really the only sport where the players and a significant amount of the fans of (very specifically) USWNT have repeatedly made apples to apples comparisons (their success at WWC as well as their ability to draw crowds for friendlies) about compensation. My point is that it's not apples to apples. That's it.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:10 pmI think this is getting too in the weeds vs. a broad sense of the equal pay theme. And I think we all can agree that the US is a unique example because of the success of the women relative to the men and of the way the NWSL has been set up and structured with direct USWNT involvement along with the recognizability and marketability of the players.Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:49 pm Just to be clear, if that is how this was structured, I'd be fine with it. It's not. The bonuses for advancing are now being placed in a pool and then being doled out to all players who have played a certain amount of minutes for either team. And, again, the payout from FIFA is ENORMOUSLY more for the men than the women. I won't go over stuff Syb and I have already stated about why this is the case.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
I'd argue college sports made and succeeded with that argument in terms of the NCAA and member programs?
- Brontoburglar
- The Dude
- Posts: 5881
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 am
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
it's a lot closer to apples to apples domestically. and that's a key point in the circumstance of the US. two things can be true here: the men's world cup is a much bigger event internationally than the women's world cup and that chasm is not nearly the same domestically when it comes to the USWNT and the USMNTNonlinear FC wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:37 amWell, it's not getting in the weeds in terms of where the discussion took us. Soccer is really the only sport where the players and a significant amount of the fans of (very specifically) USWNT have repeatedly made apples to apples comparisons (their success at WWC as well as their ability to draw crowds for friendlies) about compensation. My point is that it's not apples to apples. That's it.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:10 pmI think this is getting too in the weeds vs. a broad sense of the equal pay theme. And I think we all can agree that the US is a unique example because of the success of the women relative to the men and of the way the NWSL has been set up and structured with direct USWNT involvement along with the recognizability and marketability of the players.Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:49 pm Just to be clear, if that is how this was structured, I'd be fine with it. It's not. The bonuses for advancing are now being placed in a pool and then being doled out to all players who have played a certain amount of minutes for either team. And, again, the payout from FIFA is ENORMOUSLY more for the men than the women. I won't go over stuff Syb and I have already stated about why this is the case.
"We're not the smartest people in the world. We go down the straightaway and turn left. That's literally what we do." -- Clint Bowyer
- Brontoburglar
- The Dude
- Posts: 5881
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 am
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
I understand how and why this conversation has veered so much towards the USMNT/USWNT, but unless I'm mistaken, this discussion started with men's and women's "sports" and not soccer specifically (and multiple sports have been referenced), and that's why I asked about the universal argument for equal pay for all sports in the first place
"We're not the smartest people in the world. We go down the straightaway and turn left. That's literally what we do." -- Clint Bowyer
- The Sybian
- The Dude
- Posts: 19105
- Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
- Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
I do want to point out that I support women's soccer and hope the sport grows internationally. It's made huge strides in Europe and it's starting to in South America and I am thrilled to see it. I've actually gone to more USWNT games (3) than USMNT games (1) and I've gone to several NWSL games. The salaries for NWSL players is depressing, but attendance at the games I've gone to is around 3,000 fans. First couple of games was at Rutgers, where it's an open field with stands on one side of the field. Depressing that a pro team was playing there. Now Gotham FC plays at the Red Bull Arena, which is a beautiful stadium specifically built for soccer. 25,000 seat capacity, but it's sad watching a game with less than 3,000 fans in a stadium with 22,000 empty seats. I blame the club for failing to build a fan base. With such a large population within easy commute to the stadium and it's a huge soccer region, it's stupidity on their part. Not to mention the ownership treats the players so horribly, both of their first round picks a few years ago refused to sign and decided to play in Europe until they were eligible to play for a different NWSL team.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
-Pruitt
- Nonlinear FC
- The Dude
- Posts: 11068
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
It immediately went there because, like me, Sybian has been battered around the head and shoulders over the years on the USSF issues. And sometimes you hear the specific arguments being made and it can make someone that actually knows the apples to oranges nature of the different universes the teams operate in... It can be crazy making.Brontoburglar wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:41 pm I understand how and why this conversation has veered so much towards the USMNT/USWNT, but unless I'm mistaken, this discussion started with men's and women's "sports" and not soccer specifically (and multiple sports have been referenced), and that's why I asked about the universal argument for equal pay for all sports in the first place
So, when I said (paraphrasing) the women's version of the product isn't as good and they shouldn't be compensated on the same level, there's really only one sport where that argument being made. The LPGA and women's tennis aren't mired in controversy over compensation (unless I'm missing something.)
And so I'm clear, what are you advocating?
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
- Brontoburglar
- The Dude
- Posts: 5881
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 am
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
this:
my confusion stems from the continued references to men's and women's professional leagues as comparisons to national teams like in the most recent post. they're not comparable and only muddle the discussion if it's only about soccer
while also noting that the US soccer situation is a unique circumstance regarding the pooling and distribution of bonus money and the market for both teams domesticallyBrontoburglar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:21 pm the easiest answer to all of this is to tie competition revenue into bonus structures while keeping the base pay -- the wage -- the same. seems pretty straightforward. there's no justifiable reason to tell a woman (or man) that their work to make an international team is worth less at a base rate than it is for the other gender.
my confusion stems from the continued references to men's and women's professional leagues as comparisons to national teams like in the most recent post. they're not comparable and only muddle the discussion if it's only about soccer
"We're not the smartest people in the world. We go down the straightaway and turn left. That's literally what we do." -- Clint Bowyer
- Nonlinear FC
- The Dude
- Posts: 11068
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
And I already said a couple of times that if we're just talking about base pay I HAVE NO ISSUE. But pooling the bonuses is where I don't see it as being "fair" given the economics of the respective tournaments we're talking about. Again, no issue with base pay.
And, well, as you said, the discussion wasn't just around women's soccer to begin with and Mr. D asked what I thought was an interesting contextual question, which brought in the other sports.
I agree that it muddled the very specific path we're on wrt women's soccer, but I think we've landed at an understanding. We can agree to disagree on the bonus structure (or not, I don't know if you've really addressed it other than to say it was too in the weeds.)
And, well, as you said, the discussion wasn't just around women's soccer to begin with and Mr. D asked what I thought was an interesting contextual question, which brought in the other sports.
I agree that it muddled the very specific path we're on wrt women's soccer, but I think we've landed at an understanding. We can agree to disagree on the bonus structure (or not, I don't know if you've really addressed it other than to say it was too in the weeds.)
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
- Brontoburglar
- The Dude
- Posts: 5881
- Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:20 am
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
respectfully, I think you're underselling the domestic gap between the two teams by focusing on the international one. the equal pay/bonus pooling argument worked because the market largely favored the USWNT and allowed the public pressure to spur actionNonlinear FC wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:27 pm And I already said a couple of times that if we're just talking about base pay I HAVE NO ISSUE. But pooling the bonuses is where I don't see it as being "fair" given the economics of the respective tournaments we're talking about. Again, no issue with base pay.
And, well, as you said, the discussion wasn't just around women's soccer to begin with and Mr. D asked what I thought was an interesting contextual question, which brought in the other sports.
I agree that it muddled the very specific path we're on wrt women's soccer, but I think we've landed at an understanding. We can agree to disagree on the bonus structure (or not, I don't know if you've really addressed it other than to say it was too in the weeds.)
it's a lot closer to apples to apples domestically. and that's a key point in the circumstance of the US. two things can be true here: the men's world cup is a much bigger event internationally than the women's world cup and that chasm is not nearly the same domestically when it comes to the USWNT and the USMNT
"We're not the smartest people in the world. We go down the straightaway and turn left. That's literally what we do." -- Clint Bowyer
- Nonlinear FC
- The Dude
- Posts: 11068
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Here's where I'll leave it, in an article from Time that actually gets at some of the underlying tension and frustration some feel over this.
With that said, it's not some crazy stance to say this CBA isn't completely rooted in the economics of the sport. It's very clearly not, as is evidenced in that quote.
But, it's absolutely why the only place on the planet I would really get into the issue is in this very specifically labeled "get off my lawn" thread.
We are the only Federation in the world that is doing this. And I'm truly happy those players put aside some valid concerns/issues with the new CBA to create this unified position. I really am. If they are OK with the arrangement, it's obviously not my place to have faux outrage and grievance about it. (but is that gonna stop me?)Sure, the higher salaries that men can earn playing for their pro club teams help offset any World Cup losses—but they could have still held out on equality. “This advancement doesn’t happen without the men championing this,” says Cone. “I don’t want that to be understated. Because they were true champions of this, and worked through this because it’s not easy to give up the money that they’re giving up.”
With that said, it's not some crazy stance to say this CBA isn't completely rooted in the economics of the sport. It's very clearly not, as is evidenced in that quote.
But, it's absolutely why the only place on the planet I would really get into the issue is in this very specifically labeled "get off my lawn" thread.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
We’ve come a long way, baby
I felt aswirl with warm secretions.
Re: We’ve come a long way, baby
That was quite a read. It's a wonder we never got more women posters...rass wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:56 pm Hot Pants in Women’s Soccer?
Might try to bring back signing posts.
rass
Totally Kafkaesque
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
I met some of the NYC guys over the years and they were great and the site basically exists because of them but they were awfully bro-y back then.
I felt aswirl with warm secretions.
- Nonlinear FC
- The Dude
- Posts: 11068
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Yeah, it's pretty remarkable what was acceptable and really what was aspirational in terms of blogs and aggregators back then. Deadspin was king and Kissing Suzy Kolber seemed perfectly fine. The objectification of a high school pole vaulter seemed perfectly fine, right along with a countdown clock on when the Olsen twins were going to turn 18.
Pretty gross looking back. But certainly mainstream at the time.
Pretty gross looking back. But certainly mainstream at the time.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Legalized gambling on apps is going to cause so many problems.
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Watching the Leafs game last night - must have been 6 different gambling sites advertising during the telecast and I'm not exaggerating when I say there was one ever single commercial break. PLUS advertising on the boards throughout the game. PLUS, live line updates during the intermissions from the network's studio.
It is unconscionable.
And I am amazed at how many props are on offer. There has to be a couple dozen unique ways to lose money every period.
Canadian International
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
It's good kids don't need to find some bookie who will break a finger if they don't pay; now we just have millions of kids getting bombarding with professional marketing campaigns and addictive apps..what could go wrong?
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
A lot of first credit cards are going to get maxxed out fast.
Canadian International
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
NAM is a better abbreviation than VIE
I felt aswirl with warm secretions.
- A_B
- The Dude
- Posts: 23585
- Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
- Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.
Re: Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes
Hold on, I'm trying to see if Jack London ever gets this fire built or not.
Re: We’ve come a long way, baby
Maybe if we posted scores on the front page?Shirley wrote: ↑Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:21 amThat was quite a read. It's a wonder we never got more women posters...rass wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:56 pm Hot Pants in Women’s Soccer?
Might try to bring back signing posts.
rass
MOTHERFUCKING 2017 WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS!!!Gunpowder wrote:you transcend douchedom.